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Forum: SC Development & Design
Thread: Fed. Mineral feeding - what is the big deal?
Post by: aeldrin(34951)
2005-01-26 06:41:01
I was originally going to post this in response to Sentires's post in the 3 second rule section, but I thought I would be drifting off topic and am posting it here instead.

I also know that this is scattered throughout the forum, but I have forgotten where and I'm laze enough not to try tracking it down.
----
Sentires wrote: 3) mineral feeding. it seems to me the more that this goes on, the more people we will lose due to frustration
The "abuse" of mineral feeding, if you can call it abuse, is much less than it used to be. The creation of the fed fleet changes the dynamic of mins being sent to anyone.

For instance, every time that one person donates 11112 mins, 10000 goes into the coffers and 1112 are gone forever. If people are seriously concerned about making sure that not too many mins stay on the board, then approx 1000 fighters (2k mins) in Fed fleet are left on the board.
Fed fleet doesn't get xp bonus in terms of damage so by round end (when feeding seems to traditionally happen), the effect of the fleet is really muted and basically means that they are free mins to whoever is coming up.

Also ... if someone wants to donate with maximum efficiency, they have to have 5k fighters in their own fleet, which means spaceports, and probably a lot of building and spaceship parts plants have to be built as well.

Either way, it means that whatever fed is donating is spending ap on infrastructure and donating instead of attacking or defending.

I guess that my conclusion is that if people want to donate with the rules as they are currently set up, let them do it as it ultimately hurts their fed.

In the past few rounds, whoever was at the top wasn't immune to attack and there have been frequent surprises and upsets ... even when fed feeding was rampant.

On that note, please feel free to kibitz about this. I know there have been a number of potential changes proposed ... personal coffers, the person in the top slot not being able to access the fed coffers, etc.

Simstar might be in the best position to comment on this, but some of these potential fixes might be coming up in some of the SC beta rounds that have been discussed.
Post by: jddegraff(43958)
2005-01-26 08:30:58
al, i saw you "donate" 100k mins to kai last round.... do you have any idea how hard it is for someone like me or dwp or clams or sis or any one of the non elite players to over come that kind of gap? kinda takes the fun outta a good run when you know from the start that the highest you'll get is second, and then some shmuck will come rape you and then take all the mins and transfer them to the spot you couldn't get to anyway. pissy way to play the game, if you ask me. the tactic takes a lot from the game, and if you want proof, look at the retention of noobs (which is low, and has been for some time now), and the amout of vets that have left (mons, sis, troja to name a few), because their hearts just arn't in it. frankly, between the 3 second rule and feeding, i feel these two problams will be the death of SC. again, both these changes transefer the avantage to the defender, and THAT makes SC a very dull game. i think that if i see another couple of rounds where some feeding receiver sits up top the whole round, regardless of the end of round result, i too will quit because of these tactics.
Post by: sparkles(18049)
2005-01-26 09:17:29
In Response, not that peter seems to read his forums :)



HERE IS THE KEY



"do you have any idea how hard it is for someone like me or dwp or clams or sis or any one of the non elite players to over come that kind of gap?"



Freaking precisely. WHO THE HELL WANTS TO WATCH ELITE PLAYERS. IF the top empire couldnt be fed mins the gap would never get to big and NON elite players would always have the chance to BE NUMBER 1.

GOOD players have to think how it was when they wernt so good.



I remember feeding dan (he wasnt number 1, we dont actually feed unless chasing, lets here it for the chorus) i sent him 140k and removed the fed fleet each time i did it so he could build more torps and more torps) SO technically i can easily do it if he was number one and turn my fed fleet into mins for dan.



alternatively typically what happens or the way it works, someone can donate fed mins to number one, and have a huge fed fleet of 10k fighters. OH GREAT thats 20k mins, IF the person who donated the fleet did it right they wont even have a homeworld worth 3k mins a hit. not to mention if they raped someone to get there, they no longer, coz they sent all there mins to number 1, have the 150k mins on hand that they could have had. Do i need to go on? yes some players can overcome this. Even enjoy it. (fed fleet is 2x as strong on defence. means OH GOODIE, u may loose some hits.)



it dont matter if a non elite player gets to number1 and stays there for 5 mins, at least they got there, and they will continue to play coz they know its reachable. no one ever wants second, well maybe they do, i just dont know of many people like that.



Not a bite at u al, or anyone, i just "think" i have a better way that will encourage more movement and more players.



AND WELL the 3 second rule, lol if peter would just come online then we could get it changed.
Post by: Opacus Mortu(61923)
2005-01-26 09:36:41
ok...i love more i'm never in the lists of "vets" as u guys call them, but u guys list ppl that were here after i was...but thats beside the thing

i agree with spart, if i could somehow get to the 1 spot, that would keep me from qutiting, cuz i'll be determined to try and try and try to get there again.....as standing i havent been able to cuz there's (like today) a 500k gap....and absolutly no possible way to get there...it stiniks....ARGH I HATE IT SO MUCH!!!!! mayb if u guys all gathered together and let me have a star and a carrot....u could change my opinion

AND!!!

the 3 second rule needs to DIE!!!! I HATE IT!!! it makes runs so slow, and complicated
once in a while i see peter on aim, next time i do i'll tell him to look at the forums....cuz i think we all know he doesnt look at this stuff....

i think there's alot of thigns goign on that are making veterans leave....and i love this game...i thrive it when i'm asleep...(i really dont, its just adding to the perplexity of my statement)perplexity is a big word) and i've been soooo close to quiting with some of this stuff....mostly just cuz of this STUPID STUPID STUPID 3 second rule

well this is the longest thin gi've written in the forums, feel proud :-D

~OPA~
Post by: dwp(51152)
2005-02-01 15:36:52
The transfer of minerals from one empire to another is such an integral part of the game that it won't and can't be gotten rid of completely.

The problem is how those minerals get moved around.



A fed that gets someone to num1 and then keeps the gap large is probably a good fed. There are a few ways to do it, tho:



1)The players can be constanly on and as soon as anyone comes near they hit them wih loadsa torps and then build with their own mins - whichever players are on stay high this way.

It is difficult but not impossible to overcome a huge gap when someone is online.



2)The lower empires can hit everyone and anyone - put mins to the top using coffers and blow fed fleet to recover mins and to stay low. This way num1 (or 2 if you're REALLY trying) stay high and everyone else struggles to get that massive torp hit that you always lose.


3)The empire can have an excellent run and build a superb defense that soaks up attacks and the mins are used to build an even better defense.

All these options are good, and chances are that all of them are used at the same time - it's not like feeding is cheating or even an easy option - it is a risky strategy that can only work for so long. Eventually that torp hit will win and you'll come crashing down and the empire that takes you will be sky high.



But this game is meant to appeal to ALL skill levels and I've got to agree - no-body wants to play for num2.



My first round playing I fealt really proud of myself when I reached the top10 - didn't stay long but I got there. I think I actually managed num1 in my first couple of rounds and that made me want to keep playing so maybe I could win this thing.



What has started to happen is that num1 is only reachable by experienced players - maybe 10 or less empires are capable of holding that top spot for more than a couple of hours.



I think I lost my train of thought somewhere over there, but basically what I'm trying to say is:



We need to keep people and the the abuse of fed coffers is only being done by the experienced players, so if the experienced players want to see the game grow and develop then they have to be more responsible and if not, then something DOES need done.



Maybe if the galactice reports listed every time an empire donated to the fed - that would make it easier to 'Name and Shame' those responsible and I think that is part of the problem. It is dead easy to say "Feeding Bad!" while sending all the mins you can to the top and no-body knows.
Post by: sparkles(18049)
2005-02-02 11:28:29
im proud to say notorious uses mineral feeding to chase empires on no1 spot and never after that :)

Post by: philldodilldo(22259)
2005-02-03 21:18:57
ARG.. wa wa wa wa wa waaaaaaaaa. someone get a tissue.
Post by: aeldrin(34951)
2005-02-04 01:12:34
Good response Philldo ... critical, thought-provoking, and straight to the point. ;-)

I haven't commented for awhile but I'll take a few minutes now.

People come and go to this game for a variety of reasons. This game is competing for your time, and there are other things going on in people's lives ... new jobs, kids, relationships, etc., and your experience with the game changes as time goes on as well. The vets have been dropping out, true ... but I don't think the function of the game mechanics or manipulation of the game mechanics is going to change that very much, or bring them back.

One of the main reasons I play is because I like playing with my fedmates, I like fedruns, and I like the fed on fed rivalry.

One "problem" if you can call it that is that it is painful to be new in this game, crawl up the ladder, and then be chewed up preferentially by people with more xp.

For instance, at round end, would you prefer to hit me (Aladril) with my 500k xp and 4k shielders? Or would you hit the noob right below me who might have 10k xp and built a bunch of destroyers as an experiment to see what they would do. If I were going up the ladder, I would hit the noob, too. It's a more efficient use of my ap, and then I can use those extra mins to do someone like me a lot of harm.

Many of us have done the hit at round end where we've lost 200 fighters while the enemy lost 5k fighters, 2k destroyers, 1k shielders, 500 S.D., and their partridge in a pear tree. While we might make a comment in the chat, probably make a comment in MSN to our fedmates, it will then be forgotten and we move onto the next battle.

But the noob won't feel that way and will potentially take it personally. We've all been in that position at one point, so you know what I'm talking about.

----

So I guess I'm wondering if SC would be more welcoming if it went to a one week round like SCT. The more experienced people would still have more xp than a noob, but it won't mean that you'll get as screwed by them during their runs. And generally in one week, the empire scores are low enough that anyone can be taken down.

Again ... just my thoughts on the subject. Feel free to be critical.
Post by: FloriZeus(7923)
2005-02-04 01:42:54
Maybe a good idea... could be necessary. Rounds used to be one month and then there was the problem of the outragegeously high xp (Wish amongst others - the 16 mill xp+the 10 man Notorious round :)) so we switched it to two weeks.

Maybe the same is needed, it might make the game slightly more exciting since more possible outcomes are uhm, possible. I'm positive+
Post by: philldodilldo(22259)
2005-02-05 07:18:23
eh... how bout 2 versions... a 2 week one and a 1 week one... ??
Post by: jddegraff(43958)
2005-02-06 00:00:14
dont we already have that? sc an sct? think i told phil once they should kill sct as we know it beacause it sucks pubic hair. limit the aps down, let everyone play, and KILL the FED COFFERS. that is the biggest flaw in the current rules! right now sct is limited to 2 man feds. keep it, and just juggle the ap thingy around, and sct good to go.
Post by: philldodilldo(22259)
2005-02-06 03:20:32
i meant a standard 2 week sc and a 1 week sc.. not sct.. sct worthless at this point... waste of time so 2 sc games that non payers can join and just scrap sct.
Post by: simstar(98)
2005-02-06 04:48:31
At the moment there are 3 main "flaws" with sc. Unfortunately it looks like we will have to wait about 6 months until we get any changes or even a test game going!

The first flaw which is probably the one that has the biggest effect on the game is xp. Xp or experience at current plays a huge role in the game, basically who ever has the largest xp should win (not always the case). Also who ever has the largest xp generally will continually increase the difference between them selves and everyone else in xp. As bigger xp creates more xp which creates more....... etc. So we either need to eliminate xp entirely or slow it down in some way. i could now go on saying a million different ways this could be done but i see no point right now.

The second biggest "flaw" in sc happens to be not the fed coffers but the difference between paying and non-paying players. This could even be seen as the real reason why not many noobs hang around. Basically unless you pay you cannot be number 1 in sc. That is a fact. Obviously a paying player can run twice as many times as a non payer. So we do need to find a way that paying players get another form of bonusses, not action points, perhaps taking out the way that payers get twice as many aps entirely would solve both problems 1 and 2.

3. well the good old fed coffers. what to do aye. nothing really, feeding has been minimalised and does not happen nearly as much. Also if you choose to feed you put fed ships into your fleet. these give twice as much xp and also minerals to oponents. Therefore feeding is not really an issue anymore as it has the potential to benefit all involved.i say leave it.

Sim
Post by: sparkles(18049)
2005-02-06 18:10:17
1st one. yup 2 rounds i had highest exp and didnt win.
i like the way it works right now.

2nd one, even non payers can get to number 1...heck even win if they get a bit lucky i reckon. I did one round/ well a few as a non payer. and got 800k exp, better than some rounds as a payer :(

3rd, lol thats mad, we already know how to exploit the fed coffers and make the ladder harder to get thru. think the last round, u could have just fed urself thru the roof. its only players not doing the feeding thats making it interesting

mind u if we have to wait 6 months for changes to be made, maybe i just spent 2 mins typing for nothin.....

darnit it all
Post by: simstar(98)
2005-02-07 05:22:50
come on chris you dont seriously think that a non paying player could win? thats ludacris!
Post by: dwp(51152)
2005-02-07 06:52:34
A good non-payer could win, but most of the good players pay, so we'll probably not find out!
Post by: sparkles(18049)
2005-02-07 09:49:14
had i won the hit on kai, as a non payer, with 800k exp, then yes, a non payer would have won the round.

Do i think a non payer would win a round. well not while im here :)

IM just saying its possible :)
Post by: philldodilldo(22259)
2005-02-07 12:09:14
sim wants lower xp: guess he dont get much these days...

less benifits for paying: id assume most like me would stop paying.

Coffers: either make them personal or leave them.
Post by: Wolverine(1)
2005-02-07 22:32:35
There is no reason for you to belive that there will not be any SC changes in 6 months.

Paying players advantedge will never be removed. I am open to suggestions to modify it if possible - I personally do not think it is possible to modify it without reducing the advantedge so it is pointless or make the advantedge bigger. Neither will happen.

There will never be 2 SC games for non-payers. Except that the SC test game/server might be opened to players now and then to test out new ideas.

Peter
Post by: simstar(98)
2005-02-08 03:21:48
the test game............ 1 and a half months and counting........................ ??????
Post by: sparkles(18049)
2005-02-08 13:00:35
u know can we put the idea on the test server of not been able to feed the top empire???? AND remove the must add addition of fed fleet when u donate...

Ahhh my wish list!
Post by: scion(66682)
2005-02-09 06:13:24
Im a non-paying player, but I think im doing pretty good. I do, however, see how paying does make the game MUCH easier against noobs and non-payers.

The Annointed
Post by: sparkles(18049)
2005-05-02 11:58:06
HAHAHAHAHHAH SIM, A NON PAYER WON THE LAST ROUND....


SUCK EGGS ;P
Post by: philldodilldo(22259)
2005-05-02 12:00:55
oh man thats classic. only someone in notorious can win being a non payer cuz we own u all.
Post by: sparkles(18049)
2005-05-02 12:03:00
Loooool
Post by: Dalvian(38356)
2005-05-03 05:36:04
1. People complain about min feeding within fedearation.
2. Taking away mineral donations would, I agree, take away something crucial from the game.
3. An experienced fed can dominate the game and prove to be a menacing, almost god-like, force.

Possible (Radical) solution.

Getting rid of Mineral donations, in my opinion, isn't possible. It would wreck the game. What about a completely opposite change. What would happen if we took mineral donations out of the feds and made it possible for anyone to donate to anyone at anytime (With an AP cost of course.)

1. The feds would still have Fedfleets. They would still serve a purpose in the game.
2. It would create a sort of Free market mineral economy. Could you imagine being able to pay someone for inteligence or "hiring" a mercenary to soften up an enemy for you?
3. "Non-Elite" players would be able to help an empire take down the #1 position and essentially reset the board. The following battle, as everyone rushed to become the new #1 would be great.

I know this is a radical idea but I think it has potential. It would deffinately bring excitement to the game as alliances shifted daily, if not hourly.
Post by: philldodilldo(22259)
2005-05-03 16:03:56
SOUNDS LIKE A ok everyone send exitwit all your minerals so he can finnaly win against notorious strategy. bs if u ask me u turkeys already allie yourselfs at round end to feeding someone in hopes of getting us... not much difference.
Post by: Dalvian(38356)
2005-05-03 19:55:59
You know me better than that Phill. I'm not coming up with ways to destroy Notorious. I know you guys can be defeated with the existing rules...If people devote as much time and energy to their cause as they do in complaining about how the game is broken.

I'm merely suggesting a change that would make the game more intense and more vibrant. If the members of Notorious are good players, and they are, then they would succeed in the game no matter what the rules were.

Besides, calling us turkeys is not constructive criticism. Insults do not help the development and design process. You are too intelligent, and frankly, too good of a player to stoop the level of name calling and idea smashing.
Post by: Wolverine(1)
2005-05-04 19:33:03
It is a possibly good idea with one mayor flaw.

It will invite alot of cheaters, creating empires, mining for 500 ap and send themself the minirals.

Could possibly be prevented by demanding a score of 50k or some fleet size or something like that.

Peter
Post by: philldodilldo(22259)
2005-05-04 20:03:08
UM... it wasnt an insult dude .. u know im more harsh then that when i insult someone. and ur idea is flawed as peter said.. and to comment on peters comment id say it cant be done period due to people like whisper... this idea is something id figure him to dream up in some effort to get some gold.
Post by: Dalvian(38356)
2005-05-06 01:12:38
That's a good point from both of you. I sometimes forget that cheaters exist. I withdraw my suggestion and will see if I can dream up something new.
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