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Forum: VOW Development & Design
Thread: Move dependancies
Post by: PLIT Staff(264786)
2008-06-04 20:02:13
VOW players,

Finally after much preparation, we are ready to start implementation of the move dependancies. What this will enable is more strategy in the game and also add new routes to retirement rather than the convential ones available. In order to get the better moves, you may have to buy weaker ones which you may normally not buy until closer to retirement.

What Peter and the rest of the PLIT Staff have allowed, is for players to have a say in where the dependancies lie. What we ask is that moves will link up, and buying one move will unlock another, which in turn may unlock a third move.

Base Move: Head Lock (default move)
Level 1 Move: Chicken Wing (Submission)
Level 2 Move: DDT (Technical)

This is only a theoretical example and may not be implemented. In this thread, players will be able to give examples of what they would like to see implemented in this depenandices update. There may be some disagreement amongst players but of course this is good as different views give different ideas.

Move chains will be limited to three moves. And one move will only unlock one move.

Spam is not tollerated and will see punishments.

Thanks for your input and enjoy the games,
PLIT Staff
Post by: Dyna Mike Duncan(127082)
2008-06-04 20:10:21
First thoughts are probably already being considered, but here goes..

Snap Suplex ... German Suplex ... Rolling Germans

Vertical Suplex/Back Suplex/Stall Suplex

Drop Kick ... Missile Dropkick ... Springboard Drop Kick

May I ask has any thought gone into making sure the Dependencies even out over all the styles? May make some styles more difficult than others if they have more dependencies early on ..

I'll add some more when I'm not so tired
Post by: detroit maniac(233270)
2008-06-04 20:14:48
I'm Curious. By dependencies, Do you mean moves that can be done by doing another move, or moves that can be learned by learning another move?
Ex: Body slam -- Camel Clutch
Ex2: Moonsault -- Corkscrew Moonsault -- Shooting Star Press
I'm leaning towards the latter, but still aren't entirely sure :)
Post by: Tee eeN Eee(295379)
2008-06-06 19:07:18
I think that if this is to go ahead, which would be very good, moves should only be dependant on other moves within their own style type. so a sub move would not be dependant upon a aerial move. I know this spoils the idea a little, but it evens out the process amongst the styles.

As for dependancies, are they going to be single chain, or multiple chain. just an example is

Headlock + Armbar -- LEADS TO -- Cross Face + Half Nelson + Chicken Wing -- LEADS TO -- Bow and Arrow, Cobra Clutch, Camel Clutch, Full Nelson

Or would that complicate things?
Post by: jmallonee(34807)
2008-06-06 20:15:32
I think that the moves need to progress in a logical manner. so if a move is executed on the ground. you need moves that will get your opponent on the ground. so I dont see a headlock leading into a ffll. etc...
Post by: jmallonee(34807)
2008-06-06 21:10:47
also to make it fair to everyone.
all wrestlers should have to start in law and have to buy moves according to the move dependencies.
how would it be fair to have some people own all the good moves with out having to buy them with the dependencies?
ya I bet that makes alot of people angry. who cares you hate me anyway :o)
Post by: Tee eeN Eee(295379)
2008-06-07 12:25:46
Move order has been suggested numerous times but it would take to much prgramming, it also has nothing to do with dependancy. Think as it along the lines of something being taught,

ie crawl - walk - run

you have to do one to progress and do the other

Also starting everyone from scratch, dont think its gonna work, even if I got all the aps that I had spent back, id still be annoyed
Post by: jmallonee(34807)
2008-06-07 12:33:02
so some people will have moves that they didnt have to buy the dependencies to get?
just dont think that is fair to everyone. but. I guess with something like this. you cant be fair to everyone. like you said it wouldnt be fair to the players that have got to the upper levels. especially those who have bought ap. yet they may have some moves without the dependent moves which wouldnt be fair to the newer players.
it was just a thought. I am in no way politicking for a new start. just thought it should be fair for everyone. but.. that isn't really possible is it.
Post by: The Legend Killer(21778)
2008-06-07 13:42:51
A mass reset may seem like a simple solution, but it's perhaps the most harsh. Think about the non-donators who are in low VWO and have spent years trying to get there - Pennylane is the best example. For him to start back in LAW would be a bad idea.

I think leave things as they are, but unlock the potential moves, and lock the unpotential. For those who have just mass purchased the "best" moves, this will be a huge strategy change.

In terms of how to go about things, detroit maniac(233270) hit the nail on the head with example 2 from what I can see. One move unlocks the next which unlocks a third.
Post by: detroit maniac(233270)
2008-06-07 14:15:05
Alright, So what I'm understanding is that a total reset back to LAW is the best solution? I would like to respectfully disagree. That will cause more problems than it will solve.

When dependencies are implemented, why cant anyone who's already going though the game and bought moves just keep what they have, and have new players begin with dependencies. Then, when the players who bought moves before it was implemented retire/detach, they will have to begin like everyone else with dependencies.

I feel that would be the best solution, and could only take 1 year tops to finally have everyone playing with dependencies. But then again, it's just my solution, because coming down the stretch with 37 moves left to buy. I'd be one of the people who'd be pretty upset if everything was reset.
Post by: Captain Stupendous(38517)
2008-06-07 20:09:23
A mass reset? Well, that's going to kick my plan of retiring all styles as a non-donator right in the crotch. I'm still a good 3-4 months from retirement #4.

Move dependencies in theory is a really good thing. However, weaving together the 154 available moves would result in a tight, and very restrictive web as it limits our growth paths considerably.

If we were to at least double the total number of moves, then we'd have enough move variety to make move dependencies something worthwhile.
Post by: yar(35506)
2008-06-09 04:08:40
I personaly think Move dependancies is the worst idea to ever come down the vow turnpike, so to speak. Everytime there is a major change in the game it has always been bad for the game in my opinion. There are so many more area's that need attention first. But i have always rolled with the bad idea's and will continue to do so.
Post by: Bruiser Brody(121422)
2008-06-09 09:29:56
I agree, there are far better ideas to implement to the game and see greater potential but...as whats-his-name said...roll with it lol.

I am curious as to the stability of adding "dependency" to the system though.
Question : Exactly how will this idea be introduced into the system when people already have the top of the chain moves without some or alot of the starter moves?
Question : Will the coding compensate in redundancy when it reads that I have for example "Rolling Germans" without the moves before it? Or will it simply "block" my ability to use RG until I buy the moves before it in the chain?

Thank you in advance :)
Post by: PLIT Staff(264786)
2008-06-09 16:49:57
1) There will be NO mass reset. Reasons why have already been mentioned in the thread.
2) The reason for this update is to add a little strategy into the game. Right now, we have players generally following the same route. Now, you will have to adapt to situations. You want the best moves, you'll have to get them a little later on. Some of the best moves will be available at the start, but others may require lesser moves.
3) Wrestlers will be able to keep their moves they currently have and will be able to use them, however I believe the locker room will be adapted to those moves you have bought.
4) I will look to try this update on a test server first and see how it would effect the running of the game. If it works, it will be released on the main game.
Post by: detroit maniac(233270)
2008-06-09 17:22:28
Well, I'm really curious as to how this will work, so if you need a tester, call me your guinea pig :D
Post by: Tee eeN Eee(295379)
2008-06-12 06:09:05
so how are these dependancies going to be done? are there players working on them now? and if not do we need to start working on them?
Post by: jmallonee(34807)
2008-06-12 09:26:58
I predict that these move dependencies will make more people bash.
to get the best moves you will have to buy lessor moves. which costs money.
so the more money you have, the faster you can buy the moves you want. so the more bashing there is, the more money you make, the more moves you can buy faster.
just a thought
Post by: Dyna Mike Duncan(127082)
2008-06-12 11:36:09
I had exactly the same thought ... either that or there will potentially be even more 'clones' as more players buy any decent moves that don't have dependencies first.
Post by: Tee eeN Eee(295379)
2008-06-12 18:57:53
hmmm, it seems that a number of people do not like this idea, me myself, I agree with DMD in that it would create MORE clones instead of less, I just didnt want to be a wet blanket sort of thing, so, if most of us dont want this to happen, why are the designers spending so much time on it?

Personally I think working on a tag and/or stable tournie would be a lot better and more beneficial use of time
Post by: Dyna Mike Duncan(127082)
2008-06-12 20:39:57
I actually think move dependencies could be a good addition - but only in conjunction with (and probably AFTER) other improvements/changes have been made. Elimination (as far as is possible) of bashing as a start :)
Post by: PLIT Staff(264786)
2008-06-12 20:45:30
I have asked for Peter to open up the test server when these changes are ready to be coded. I will then take a sample population of the VOW community and ask for their opinions on the changes. If there is positive feedback, they will stay in place.

I have also asked for Tag and Stable tournaments to be looked at in the very near future. I am also looking at pushing bashing restrictions further up the agenda. Maybe looking at setting a cap on how low stats can get (perhaps the basic starting stats).
Post by: jmallonee(34807)
2008-06-12 22:07:49
that's cool. I sent peter a message with basically the same concerns asking for the tags and stable matches to be further developed.
and for him to get rid of staff other than doctors. the other staff has caused more arguments in chat than anything else in my experience.
I hope peter will make appropriate changes that will enhance game play for the players
Post by: insane clown(11577)
2008-06-17 13:00:18
we should take it back to the old days and get rid of all staff the game was at its best back then.

The game is trying to go forwards but i belive we need to take a step back to go forwards.

The game as i belive was most popular a few years ago alot of people donated because they enjoyed the game, now they have left. And peter told me himself via msn that people arnt donating like they used to, we need to find the reason for that and to find that reason i think we need to take a step back.

Just my opinion i doubt anybody will agree

The King Of VOW/Athan Parris Damalis
Post by: dak(317170)
2008-06-20 16:02:21
I like Duane's Idea :D
Post by: denzil(82151)
2008-06-21 02:20:06
Move dependencies seem to be an interesting idea. I think the idea of blocking bought moves that precede the earlier moves would bring fairness to the game. All it means is the moves they have already bought do not have to be purchased a second time. All they would need to do is purchase the required moves to unlock the advance move or just leave it and it will effect them the next time threw V.O.W.

I'm not sure if this will lead to more advancements like specialisation etc. But I think the people that are improving the game are doing an awesome job. Someone recommended that the move should only be linked. If they're in the same style. So, that would mean having to technical moves. Such as German suplex and rolling Germans. If this was to be a combination of three moves what would the next move be.. Will the tree of moves be shown or is it pot luck as you undo the move tree.

Bashin and cheeting are all part of every game. So to say this is going to cause more cheets well it means the mods have more work. So be it. Or a simple tool where the mod can see matchs that come up on a filter list. Any more matchs than 5 per day per person shows up. Who knows. Just the mods so it donít realy effect n any of normal players. Most vets bash there way threw law any way. You donít see them telling the other laws how. Any way I would like to see this move tree as it gets made.

any thing for a change might be fun. as well force players tactics to change.

Post by: legendary wolf(38655)
2008-06-21 13:52:28
"would bring fairness to the game"

How so? elaborate. If anything it further weighs the advantage in the experienced player who knows what moves to buy only this time they've got to buy the move that preceeds it as does everyone else...
Post by: denzil(82151)
2008-06-26 05:20:11
um if your a newb you can ask! or even look at the wicky or look up a vet that knows and get some friendly tips. even with the new stuff comeing in the oldys will have to learn how to buff up even more. but most legends get by newbs with there legend bounus of +1 or +7 depening on your awesomeness! EH?
Post by: legendary wolf(38655)
2008-06-26 15:59:00
"um if your a newb you can ask! or even look at the wicky or look up a vet that knows and get some friendly tips. even with the new stuff comeing in the oldys will have to learn how to buff up even more. but most legends get by newbs with there legend bounus of +1 or +7 depening on your awesomeness! EH?"

Post by: denzil(82151)
2008-06-28 03:48:11
lucky your no teacher than eh? cause i passed!
Post by: legendary wolf(38655)
2008-06-28 13:30:49
My no teacher what? I don't have a no teacher, whatever one of those is.
Post by: Prince Of VOW(270242)
2008-07-31 21:29:07
Couldn't this be introduced to just new characters? to slowly implement it into the game?

new char = dependencies activated
retired char = dependencies activated for new style
existing char = dependencies deactivated

will seem slow but i think it makes the most sense
Post by: denzil(82151)
2008-08-04 09:35:47
most likely the old chars will have gon over or past the dependances so they will not be efected any way. it will the next time around after the legend bounus is added. so i dont see a problem.
Post by: Koi(148518)
2009-01-12 23:21:53
So what ever happened to this idea?
Post by: lw09(314821)
2009-01-13 21:13:59
Same thing that happened to all the others..

Post by: suepahfly(59692)
2009-01-15 11:31:07
Koi, leave the dead be!
Post by: Koi(148518)
2009-01-16 23:01:23
Can't... I don't want this game to die. I like it to much.
Post by: legendary wolf(38655)
2009-01-18 11:31:05
I liked my hamster, it's deaded.

(i killed it with a housebrick... and then i ate it)
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