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Forum: VOW Development & Design
Thread: What makes the other games work
Post by: Bruiser Brody(121422)
2008-03-02 15:01:32
We can debate on what is successful and what is not when looking at todays online games. But, as I have seen from playing and beta testing all types and forms of online games, the one common denominator is how a game creates revenue. Without a sustained revenue base, any game will fall into mediocrity and ultimately fail in it's main objective : growth !!!

Well, Jim, what do you propose? you might ask?

Looking at the age group that mostly comprises VOW's playerbase, the "premium options" or donator status should reflect a pricing plan(s) that best suites a teenage/college student income level or comfort zone. Think about it. The number 1 reason why new players say they won't/can't donate to their accounts is because of income restraints ( basically mom/dad won't pay that much ).

Look at the success of Runescape.com and you'll see a basic premium option plan of $5, that meets the financial portfolio of it's predominately teen playerbase.

IF Peter revamps the DONATION page, to incorporate a well balanced package plan, he could also reap the benefits and success as those other games do...thus opening more opportunities for a larger staff and gain the ability to sustain growth and timely updates ;)Remember, all World economies are seeing rough times right now, so it's easier to talk someone into spending a small amount like $5 as opposed to $20+.

I have some positive ideas already designed if Peter or the Plit Staff wish to discuss more on this subject ;).

Jim
Post by: mob(23502)
2008-03-02 22:59:30
I play GW 99% of the time and of all the PLIT games it gets the least benefits. A $5 package would be very appealing to me.
Post by: jmallonee(34807)
2008-03-03 00:42:08
think of all the ap I could buy if the price was reduced :o)
Post by: denzil(82151)
2008-03-03 05:22:53
what about bringing this game accross to face book. it has a massive amount of users and it its got a easy linking opstion as well. As well they have ads etc so who knows it might be worth a go?
Post by: legendary wolf(38655)
2008-03-03 08:47:15
except for the fact we'd be over run with emos, and noone wants that. -.-
Post by: Dyna Mike Duncan(127082)
2008-03-03 09:22:00
I think the idea of reducing the initial donation fee is a good one (even though I've only just renewed my donation!!!) but I think the minimum price for purchasing additional AP should stay as it is - however, increase the AP blocks that are purchased (30GC's buys 3,000AP, not 2,000 - then every additional 20GC's buys a further 3,000 AP)

Make it more affordable should entice more people to sign-up, offering more AP per GC bought will persuade more donators to buy AP more regularly etc
Post by: yar(35506)
2008-03-03 11:04:31
depends if you can get matchs, I would have already bought extra Ap if i could use up the AP on decent matchs that I already get for free.
Post by: Dyna Mike Duncan(127082)
2008-03-03 11:19:22
I guess it will take time - but the theory behind this suggestion would probably work as follows ...

Reduce Donation Costs = More Donators = More Wrestlers = More Promotions into Higher Leagues = More Competition = More Potential to find opponents.

As well as:

Reduce Donation Costs = More Donators = More money available for development.

Whether that means reducing the Donation cost to as little as $5/3 Months compared to $21/3 Months or somewhere between those figures is Peter's call.

Basic Supply + Demand theory really.


The other consideration (if donations are reduced) has to be what happens to all the people (myself included :P) who still have time on their current donation periods? Do they get refunded GC's on a pro-rata basis/donation time extended or will it just be written off as bad timing?
Post by: The Legend Killer(21778)
2008-03-03 14:28:19
I like the idea. However, and I apologise for the negative comment, what would happen if the number of donations stay constant to what we have now if the price is dropped? Would people then complain if they paid $15 for three months, then the price returned to the $21 it was previously?

Personally, I think the prices we have for the overall site is fair; $21 for 5 games over three months, in comparison to $5 for 1 game per month. However, again, we have to look at what that money gets you. Taking Jim's example of RS; this is a game which is actively updated. New content is added every week almost and they have/had a total of 1 million paying customers in the time they're been in operation.
PLIT on the other hand offers little in active updates, mainly because of Peter's inability to be active due to work committments (however, we shall not turn this into a Peter/PLIT bashing thread).

Companies like JaGeX have teams of hundreds of people working on all aspects of the game, from chat moderation to development. Why can't PLIT become like this? OK, we don't have 5 million active users (probably more around the 10,000 mark). But why can't we have something similar? That's something for another day.

In terms of a pricing plan, maybe having something for game specific players as well as a generic payment.

As we've already seen from this thread, people like mob only play one or two games. So why not offer something like this:

One game package (non-SfP/VOW): $3 per month
Two game package (non-SfP/VOW): $4.50 per month
Full site package (all games): $variable depending on paid time
Premium site package (added extras): $as above

I'm not sure what you guys think about it, but $3 to play GW as a donator is a fair better deal than paying $7 a month. The reason why SfP and VOW shouldn't be included in this package is because the demands on the server are far greater and the prices should reflect this.
Post by: Dyna Mike Duncan(127082)
2008-03-03 15:35:10
I only play VOW + don't begrudge the annual/monthly cost myself - but then again, I'm not a 14 year old with only a paper round as income I suppose.

I like the idea of Game specific donations though.

I was thinking of something that was mentioned a while back about a 'Premium' account that, for an additional cost, would allow players on VOW to have 5 wrestlers instead of 3. This could be another option if Game specific donations were brought in - the more you pay for membership on VOW, the more wrestlers you were able to create.
Post by: yar(35506)
2008-03-03 17:37:48
I only play VOW personaly and dont like that I am paying for games I dont play. I think 5.00 per game per month would be a better way to go. although some will disagree with me. lol
Post by: Dyna Mike Duncan(127082)
2008-03-04 10:47:15
From LK's post, I assume VOW + SfP are the most popular games and would therefore be the most expensive to run/maintain. No idea what the player-levels are like on any of the other games myself though.

The minimum donation cost at the moment is $7/month which covers all 5 games.

If it is going to cost $3/month just to sign up for one of the other 3 games, what cost would that suggest for VOW or SfP?

I'd say $3/month to play either VOW or SfP would be fairer, then $5/month for both and then $1/month for any of the other additional games you sign up for - but if you sign up for all 5 games, it still costs just $7/month, not $8

Then, the longer the donation peiod you buy each time, the cheaper it becomes
Post by: Bruiser Brody(121422)
2008-03-04 11:08:11
My initial post was vague but got the discussion rolling :) Since there's positive interest in this thread, I'll spot a few of my ideas here.

Here goes :
The $5 package could look like this = Option (A)$5 gets you 1000 ap.
Option (B)$5 gets you a second free special move.
Option (C)$5 gets you 3 free moves from the lower tier dependency tree {when it's finally implemented}.
Option (D)$5/$10/$15 gets you a donator status for 1/2/3 months for only ONE character to use {not 3}.

Side notes : When setting up a pricing plan, you can't look at the satisfaction of a handful of players, YOU MUST appeal to the majority of your playerbase. If you think that "less = less" in every situation, then look at what Runescape and other successful games are doing. Lower prices actually means more revenue when you can increase your paying customers exponentially ;). My personal business adventure lowered our ticket prices for 2008. We also added several options to the pricing plan to accommodate for children, and send out free tickets to the local radio stations to be given away. Math is Math. 200 customers x $9 = $1800 gate revenue. 100 customers x $11 = $1100 gate revenue. Also the vending receipts for 200 customers is 2-3 times greater. Math is Math folks. In business sales, less can equal alot more with the right approach and planning ;).

Thoughts on the Option plans : Buying more ap, a second free special, or 3 free regular moves does NOT make a new player understand the game better, BUT it does make the game more appealing and for a new players feeling of having a stronger character. Increasing a person's chances of success, minor as they may seem to us veterans, can go along way towards everyone's ultimate goal "for" VOW, and that is sustained growth !!! Also, that second free special is HUGE for LAW's and SPWA's as it allows them to save their money for buying more moves, thus sustaining their chances of success and increases the chances that they will stay in the game. The side effect of having new players buy in to the low cost plans, be better equipped with more moves and/or specials could also be VOW seeing less "LMS Gankers" in the game ;) {If a challenge cap of 75 experience is added, then this issue would further drop down the list of concerns} After the new options and cap are added, Peter could simply send out a playerbase wide ingame message about the "new and exciting" changes, then apply that message to be sent to every new charcter that is made....in effect spamming/advertising it :)

Just a few ideas to chew on !!! ;)
Post by: Dyna Mike Duncan(127082)
2008-03-04 11:31:29
The major factor we all seem to be overlooking is the ease in which any potential changes can be made. As has been mentioned before, PlitGames is effectively a one-man operation - and a very busy one-man at that.

Unless the initial changes are simple to implement and not overly time-consuming and expensive, then I doubt even the best suggestions (mine, obviously :P) will be implemented.

Let's keep it simple to start with and then progress from there :)
Post by: Bruiser Brody(121422)
2008-03-04 11:41:20
Well, everyone has added good ideas over the years. If nothing is to be done to PLitgames because Peter just can't do it, then seriously....he needs to find a way to "trickle" that exact feeling and situation to the players. If VOW is indeed living it's last days, I think the players deserve something. Anything, but false hope of "changes on the rise".

As I said before, start with the pricing change and see where it takes the games. Improved Stable, Tag team, and Tournament functions, along with nominal ingames functions can wait.
Post by: Bruiser Brody(121422)
2008-03-04 12:01:07
Btw, if you look at all the "Legends and veterans" that still play the game, you'll notice a startling statistic. Of all the the profiles that I have looked at, the average FAME is under 300. If Peter is going to make an effort of some kind to restore VOW...it has to be soon, very soon :) This is why I have offered what I see as the best way to accomplish this : sustained revenue and growth.
Post by: yar(35506)
2008-03-04 12:08:09
I think it is obvious to me anyway that VOW has slowly been dying, and unless some change happens it wont be worth the money to pay the server.
I understand that Peter is busy, has a life or what ever, but I could care less, this is a business that he made, and he owes the investors to make some changes, hire a programmer if need be, or even sell the game.
I would hate to see VOW die just because his personal life got in the way, when he made this game it put food on his table, I think he owes the loyal supporters.
Post by: Dyna Mike Duncan(127082)
2008-03-04 12:19:22
I'm not sure how much is 'owed' to the loyal supporters if I'm honest - we pay our money and take advantage of the game benefits that cash buys us. Deal done - simple exchange of cash for services, but I do agree that changes need to be made.

I know of quite a lot of people who would start to donate or donate more if the prices were just a little bit cheaper.

When I first started on VOW, and before I became a donator, I used to get a monthly e-mail from the site asking if I was willing to become a donator - does this still go on?

Unfortunately, it is the same tiny group of people who contribute to Forum discussions every time, so this doesn't really give a good cross-section of opinions - maybe a simple e-mail questionnaire could be sent out to all members asking their opininons on pricing etc to give a better view
Post by: Bruiser Brody(121422)
2008-03-04 12:28:47
I agree with you about the survey mail. But, I think the answer is clear when you ask the populous about pricing on anything lol. Of course they would love to see more affordable plans in the future.

To the players that think I'm only concentrating on VOW's needs and disregarding the other games, yes I am....to a degree. VOW is without a doubt the most populated of all PLitgames. Start with your greatest opportunity to succeed with revenue growth, and then once that is maintained, start looking at ways to improve the others. ;)
Post by: The Legend Killer(21778)
2008-03-04 12:33:46
VOW and SfP are the bigger games server wise, so these would cost more. I think AF is more popular than SfP though.
Post by: Bret Hart(73101)
2008-03-04 14:28:11
I agree with BB... The reason I don't buy ap is because I can't afford it. I definitely could use some now to get out of SSWO, but I can't pay a minimum of $30 everytime I want ap.
Post by: Tee eeN Eee(295379)
2008-03-04 19:21:52
Ok, firstly I think there are a number of good points being put foward in this debate, here are mine.

$21 for three months for all games is very generous, this doesnt have to be change at all in my opinion, what I do suggest though are the following options

$10 for the purchase of a new vow wrestler. This will be open to ALL and the wrestler will be available to keep forever.

$5 for the purcahse of a new vow wrestler for three months.

$7 to attain 2aps per min plus a removal of the vow ap cap per wrestler for 3 months

$3 for the removal of the vow ap cap for 3 months

$10 for the permanant removal of the vow ap cap.

I think the more choices that a potential donater has as too what he will be donating for, the more likaly he is to donate. However, i think brodys options b and c, whereby a donation could lead to free moves, will throw off the games balance. currently it is focused around aps,
aps-matches-money-moves. Options B and C will cut out the importance, to some extent, of the aps and thus the matches.

I may be talking garbage, and normally i do, so basically im saying, donating doesnt have to be cheaper, it should be split up into choices, with these options being cheaper
Post by: Bruiser Brody(121422)
2008-03-04 21:23:04
" $10 for the permanant removal of the vow ap cap. "

" $7 to attain 2aps per min plus a removal of the vow ap cap per wrestler for 3 months "

" $3 for the removal of the vow ap cap for 3 months "



1) If you take away that which drives players to spend more, then just forget changing anything LOL. :) A player can simply pay $10/7/3, let his character sit for a month, and come back to alot of ap without the need to pay for anything lol. Bad idea.

-----------------------------------------------------------



" $10 for the purchase of a new vow wrestler. This will be open to ALL and the wrestler will be available to keep forever. "

" $5 for the purcahse of a new vow wrestler for three months. "



1) This has potential, but I'm really not certain if anyone would want to pay for another character. If you detach, do you lose your $5, or is that new character a permanent fixture? My concerns on this idea, is that it would pull away from the monthly donation subscribers.

---------------------------------------------------------



" $21 for three months for all games is very generous, this doesnt have to be change at all in my opinion, what I do suggest though are the following options "



1) As I said, the vast majority of the playerbase is teenagers living at home. It's alot easier to get a parent to pay $5 a month for a subscription, than $21 all at once.

2) Ask Peter, and I'm sure he will tell you that his greatest months of revenue from AP buying was when the monthly subscriptions were at their peak.

3) Players are more likely to find ways to spend more money on a game that they have initially invested in (via monthly subs).





***We see it all the time in chat, where players are asking for people to buy them a donators account. When my teenager asked me to subscribe to a game he wanted to play, that simple $5 monthly sub looked cheap and affordable.

***Remember, all I did was lower my ticket cost to the wrestling show by $2 and I'm seeing double the number of people attending my shows this year. The huge increase in customers also greatly affected how much food, drink, candy, and memorabilia sold ;) ;) ;).

***Get them in the door first, and the desire to spend more will come naturally lol.
***If we see alot of players donating $5 and then quit the game, that's still more income that Peter wouldn't have seen in the past. The object here is to create more revenue and give Peter a solid reason to devote more time to the game(s) and have the ability to bring on some staff to assist him.
Post by: Bruiser Brody(121422)
2008-03-04 21:48:03
Also...

more monthly subs has the potential for players to stay in the game longer and increase the number of players in the upper leagues ;). Bottom line : less equals more. And at this point in, what's the risk lol. Bringing back the voting option is FREE advertising...especially when players see Virtual Online Wrestling at or near the top of those online game listings.
Post by: Bruiser Brody(121422)
2008-03-04 21:58:14
" Let's keep it simple to start with and then progress from there :) "

Other than changing a characters name, what coding is simple? LOL If peter wants to see something come of VOW, then he'll have to do the backwork, plain and simple. Every success story, positive or negative, took back/leg work to achieve it. Increasing the revenue of a business should be the first priority of any owner. Otherwise, the business will ultimately fail, via quick or slow death.
Post by: Tee eeN Eee(295379)
2008-03-05 07:18:10
the $10 for a new char is aimed at none donators mainly, with no refund/remake for detachments. this would encourage guys not too detach
Post by: Dyna Mike Duncan(127082)
2008-03-05 08:12:44
Is the 3 Month Donation period the minimum you can buy - or is it possible to just pay $7 for one month?

The conversion of the donating system to Game Credits has enabled me to be able to buy a few GC's every month and build them up so I can pay for longer donation periods, and therefore get it cheaper - this, along with adding PayPal, was a good change that seems to have been overlooked.

As things stand, we can all make constructive criticisms + suggestions, but if nothing changes, are any of the long term donators really going to stop donating if nothing changes?

I'd love to see Peter get back to the position where he was making money from the game as this would be an added incentive to make further improvements.

I think a small change in the pricing structure would make a big difference personally - but that's not a major issue for me personally
Post by: denzil(82151)
2008-03-05 08:32:48
well the first call i have seen is money. I donate to 4 podcasts of 2 to 5$ each. to help them run the game. I allso pay 60$ per year in plitgames. If i could just set up a subscrition of 5$ to pay for the game and its set on a autmatic payment its fine by me and far easyer for me to try find the 60$ at the end of the year. it can fall into my budget easy.

if you want more pay more. set it at 7$ per month for extra stuff. like extra chars etc. but at least set it so you can do a automatic donation of 5$ per month. Mums and dads would not blink at this. say 60$ lol no way. 5$ is about the same as a coffie in the USA at starbucks.

if you want to donate and not play vow what about 3$ per month? I play all games bar SFP. so there would be no complaining my end.

at least Peter would see a set amount of cash flow come threw his game. thats whats needed to keep it running
Post by: tbragu(97303)
2008-03-05 10:22:20
In my opinion, anything that at the end of the day means more money is a good thing. There are fewer donating players now than when I first started. Something needs to be done to change this, period.
Post by: The Legend Killer(21778)
2008-03-05 13:44:54
You can pay $7 for 30 days donation time.

Allowing players to buy moves or specials with real money will soon quickly turn this game into a three class game. Those with no money to spend, those with just donation time and those with a lot of money to spend. I'm not discouraging the spending of money since it keeps the game running, but now players like Mad Max and Bubba Gump are getting too far ahead of the normal players (i.e. non/low retired legends). Jim now has a +6/+7 bonus, so most normal players won't be able to touch him unless they get a sneaky win. Throw another 200k on him, and that makes him almost impossible to defeat, especially in LMS matches.

Another reason why JaGeX can ask for $5 per month is because they run their payments through Direct Debit orders monthly, so unless you physically remove your DD order, the money will come out month after month.

I don't think having a recurring donation is a bad idea, although the downside is that if the accounts have a lack of funds, then Peter will be charged.

If a system like this is implemented, to stop people from complaining that money is still being taken out of their account, there should be a line in the donation link (made very clear) explaining the feature, and also, when a player logs in 10 days before their donation time expires, there should be a reminder that the DD order should be removed within 3 days of the end of the donation period otherwise $7 more will be taken out.

Although this system does have it's disadvantages. If you have no internet access for 5 months, you could lose $35 for something you don't lose. Which is why something like what we have now is a good option.

Maybe allow a choice between the two methods is a good idea.
Post by: Bruiser Brody(121422)
2008-03-05 14:28:33
Ben, yes, that's what I recommended...choices or smart options. :) The options you suggested that would separate the game into 3 financial classes is true. In the past, when we had alot of active veterans, new players could catch up to them quickly by spending alot of cash. The same will be so with a cheaper, easier method of donation.

I'm not concerned about the desires and needs of only a few players, but looking at the bigger picture. ;)
Post by: denzil(82151)
2008-03-06 07:01:44
ok LK but in the long run your off the game fir a wile but you come back to 50000 ap in your chars acounts. so its a well spent 35$

For people that know how to set up and run a auto payment awesome. Thats me. 7 of my main Bills are payed this way and all i see is a bill with a creadit at the end of the month. i dont think 5$ will be hard to do. or even 3$ for non vow players per month. ye i know you can pay 7$ per month now as is but i hate stuffing around logging in and doing all the pay pal crap. its a pain. if this does hapen i would be happy. 1 less problem to wory about.
Post by: Dyna Mike Duncan(127082)
2008-03-06 07:57:17
Basically brainstorming here - so bare with me :P

For further developments to be made to VOW, one of two things has to happen - either Peter has to take the time to do them himself (which given the demands on his personal life will, I assume, take quite some time) or he will have to pay somebody else to do them (and given the fact that VOW/PlitGames isn't generating the cash it used to do, seems highly unlikely)

The only solutions to the above are for Peter to take on a business partner who is willing to invest some cash + time into the game, have PlitGames covered in advertising, or for ways to be found to generate more cash in the short term to enable developments in the mid/long term.

I'm assuming that everytime somebody uses PayPal or a Debit/Credit Card to donate to PlitGames, then PlitGames gets a charge for this. How these charges work will have to be taken into account when any decision is made on any changes to prices or payment methods.

(For example, if it is a fixed charge per transaction, offering more frequent but smaller donation periods of say 1 month at a time, will end up costing PlitGames MORE, so would be economic suicide! But if it is based on a percentage of the amount paid each time, then it makes no difference if donations are made monthly or yearly etc)

Getting back to my e-mail survey suggestion - the first questions would have to be:

Which PlitGames do you play regularly?
Do you currently donate?
Would you consider donating if the prices were reduced?
Which of the Plitgames would you be interested in donating towards to gain the additional benefits?

Something simple like that may give a better indication as to whether or not to change the whole pricing mechanisms
Post by: jmallonee(34807)
2008-03-06 08:20:16
Which PlitGames do you play regularly? vow
Do you currently donate? yes
Would you consider donating if the prices were reduced? yes
Which of the Plitgames would you be interested in donating towards to gain the additional benefits? only vow
Post by: yar(35506)
2008-03-06 09:41:32
Which PlitGames do you play regularly? Only VOW.

Do you currently donate? yes I do.

Would you consider donating if the prices were reduced? of course I would.

Which of the Plitgames would you be interested in donating
towards to gain the additional benefits? Just VOW.
Post by: Dyna Mike Duncan(127082)
2008-03-06 09:51:43
Erm...



that was just a suggestion lol - I think we need a bigger polling sample than just the handful of people who regularly check the Forums :P So I was suggesting an e-mail being sent to all the members
Post by: Dyna Mike Duncan(127082)
2008-03-06 12:30:44
One other thought - I don't play other online games myself, so was wondering what sort of advertising they have ON their sites (ie people paying them to be able to have banner advertising etc on the game site)

I know there's a Sponsors link on VOW (not that I've ever checked it) - but is it not worth investigating how much revenus could be generated for PlitGames from allowing other sites to advertise on here?
Post by: Captain Stupendous(38517)
2008-03-07 00:52:26
Lots of other online games rely upon banner ads, but the best games rely upon donations and have few to zero (yes, it's possible) ads.

The best example is the Korean MMO market. There are countless games, rich with content and boasting high production value, yet are still completely free to play. The game developers' costs are certainly high, but they still manage to stay profitable from a steady stream of donations.

Q: What keeps these people donating?
A: Constant and frequent updates combined with Micropayments.

Granted, I am comparing PLIT Games, which currently consists of one employee - Peter, to much larger companies, but the truth remains that if PLIT Games remains stagnant it will eventually diminish to nothing. Changing the donation structure would simply apply a small bandage to the festering wound of stagnation.

There is one constant rule that can be found throughout existence from the natural world to the business world that can be applied to this whole discussion with extreme relevance: Evolve or Die.
Post by: legendary wolf(38655)
2008-03-07 04:31:36
"Lots of other online games rely upon banner ads"

I know VOW has banners but whilst browising the many tubes of the internet i have never ever ever ever seen a VOW banner on another site :S
Post by: Tee eeN Eee(295379)
2008-03-07 10:08:20
I was thinking that advertising banners would be a great Idea. How many wrestling forums are there around, we could ask some of them if they wanted to advertise on here, either for revenue or in exchange for plit being advertised on them.

Also, does anyone know how much money peter is losing on the game, and how much he gets from donators. If we are going to make the game work again financially, then we will at least need to know how much more income is needed.
Post by: The Legend Killer(21778)
2008-03-07 12:38:22
Server costs is about $250 a month I would guess. Maybe even more.
Post by: Bruiser Brody(121422)
2008-03-08 01:59:57
"I was thinking that advertising banners would be a great Idea. How many wrestling forums are there around, we could ask some of them if they wanted to advertise on here, either for revenue or in exchange for plit being advertised on them. "


The wrestling forums of any merit that I know of , cost money to place an advert on their sites. In the business world, advert swapping has to show profitability for both sides in order for there to be some sort of compromise on costs.

"Evolve or Die."

Suggestions at this point are to try and revive the game to a point where future exploration into valuable and meaningful ingame updates can be possible.

"Also, does anyone know how much money peter is losing on the game, and how much he gets from donators."

It would seem hard to believe that a man who has a young family would keep Plitgames going if it wasn't profitable. ;) WORD.
Post by: legendary wolf(38655)
2008-03-08 07:57:15
Peter's a man? i thought he was an all knowing, all seeing entity, that noone has ever seen and we refer to him by the name of a man to make us feel close to him.
Post by: tbragu(97303)
2008-03-08 08:46:56
There are a lot of ways to generate income for any game, and many are already being discussed. But the fact is that you need some type of way to encourage people to repeatedly invest money into the system, even in small amounts, to keep the game evolving.

I play an online game that has monthly items that can be donated for that are only available that month. While not a viable option in VOW, this might work in some of the other games on this site. A monthly item or perk that you can donate a small affordable sum to and reap the benefits, while giving money to the game.

Other things off the top of my head that I can think of are the following.

Since this site is mostly text/chat based, something to make your character stand out in chat could be viable as a means to draw donations. How about a five dollar charge, and you can get a small avatar next to your name in chat? It would have to fit within the rules of what is allowed in PLIT, but it would be personal to your character/characters.

Or the same small donation to allow your name to be in a different color? This may sound petty, but it could also be cheap, and as said before Math is Math. Anything that will bring in more money is a good thing.
Post by: Captain Stupendous(38517)
2008-03-08 16:05:51
Here's a really simple suggestion that would hopefully increase the overall perceived value of a PLIT Games donation: Display banner ads for the OTHER games within the PLIT network.

Cross-pollination between all of the PLIT Games would be a good thing, because if more people get addicted to more than one game within the PLIT network, they will be more inclined to donate.
Post by: Bruiser Brody(121422)
2008-03-11 09:59:27
I agree with the cross pollinating thing lol :)
Post by: Bruiser Brody(121422)
2008-03-11 10:02:41
I agree with the avatar idea also.

Alot of solid ideas have been presented in this thread. Is there any way that we could bribe one of the Head MOds to gather all the suggestions up and submit a report to Peter directly?

Purty pweese :)
Post by: Bruiser Brody(121422)
2008-03-11 10:04:48
IF a Head Mod can't get a positive reply, then we at least know where we stand :)
Post by: Bruiser Brody(121422)
2008-03-11 10:54:28
Brainstorm ( or bumping an old idea that got forgotten ).

mIRC for game chat ( room ).

IRC servers are easy to setup, scripts can be added to greatly help monitor the chat rooms, several rooms can be created for PLITgames : MOD/Op only room/private, General Chat ( for each game ), Plit Veterans room ( accessable by pw after a certain xp level is reached/PWO maybe :) ),( HELP room ( all-in-one room for all games ), and the benefits are staggering.

Scripts can assist MODs in monitoring rooms allowing 24/7 coverage.
A HUGE reduction in traffic and content transferring on PLITgames server.
Or, the extra space on the games interface could be used for advertising, cross-pollinating of games, or added options like a personalized layout/background and/or avatar.
IRC rooms are LIVE feeds, no more "click to refresh chat".
Huge potential for decrease in game lag".

Constructive opinions are welcome :)
Post by: tbragu(97303)
2008-03-11 10:56:44
Only downside for that is that some vision disabled players might not be able to use this function. But it is a good idea on the whole.
Post by: PLIT Staff(264786)
2008-03-11 14:24:03
Apologies guys, I've been trying to get the move commentaries done and have neglected this thread. I have positive ideas stemming from this discussion and I appreciate the input from a those who have posted (positive and negative). It's great to see those who are still interested in the games trying to improve the status and quality of what we have.

As said before, it is only Peter who can code the ideas into the game, and while I'm trying desperately to learn the coding and persuade Peter to allow me to make additions to the game (he did say one time that I can do AF updates, so that's a real start), it's a real uphill task to make huge updates at the minute. Although with Easter coming up, hopefully giving Peter a few crates of beer and a few cigarettes (maybe some pizzas too) will get him in front of a screen long enough to implement at least 1 idea into the game.

On the server front, we are all paid up for the next 12 months (woohoo), so we have time to play with.


We have looked at having an IRC chat in recent times. The VOW3 chat is probably the closest we have at the minute. We do have an IRC channel in the game. Maybe, we could look at getting that more active again? Use it as a specialist help centre perhaps?

Anyway guys, please keep up the discussion and hopefully I can bring some feedback in the next 7-14 days after I present a few ideas to the boss.

Ciao for now.
Head Moderator, c/o PLIT Staff
Post by: denzil(82151)
2008-03-12 04:10:48
I am sure a Pay pal donation button on the front page would be a awesome idea. Google has free anlitics that will show you hot spots on your web page. If you did see a Pay Pal icon on the front page where would you place it to get the best out of it. I get so many questions how to donate etc.

IRC is a good chat tool but not for some screen readers.

What about a cut down free verson of plitgames or just vow for say some of the socal network sights. i am playing some beta games on one sight. its been going for about 3 months and it has 40000 members. it has a wreasling game too that has 33000 members. there both new games.

lets say you add vow to one of them. it is inclosed inside the web sight. it has all its own links etc. I have over 35 friends in this sight. i can send requests to them to join. on avrage 10 of them join me in the games or aps. so if one player can bring 10 players whats the problem with this? its a viral thing. we might need bigger survers lol. how many main streem socal networks do you know. i can think of three. 1 does crap loads of games. why not use it. i dont like to put in sights names so i cant get in trouble.
Post by: suepahfly(59692)
2008-03-12 06:21:11
sigh...
I came to this thread thousands of times allready, but very time there were posts that were soo damn long!
It's hard for a little fly to read all these big posts!

Once again i come flying by, and i still don't have a clue what it's about...
I just want peter to know that i'd love to do some programming for him.
i know my ways around PERL (i'm mainly a nerd in html and have stupid PASCAL at the uni now, sigh...).

Anyway, the point is: "when the fly goes to a nerd, beats him up, steals his glasses, wears some old short pants and a checkered shirt, wears white trainin-socks (i don't have regular whites) and pulls them up till his knees, goes to his fathers closset for some sandals, comes his hair to 1 side, makes a funny serious face and puts the stolen glasses on as a finishing touch, the fly looks damned much like a cliché nerd!"

Anyway... erm... i lost my point there...
But i'm proud that i can join you guys in the "long post-thread with too much useless info to read"! :D

ugh, the fly has spoken...


-CIAO, EL MOSCA- (=the fly)
Post by: denzil(82151)
2008-03-13 03:54:34
um you need hair? UMMM you need a checkered shirt too? o o i better go shopping. I got the glasses but its to hot for socks and well shorts pulled up this high is just not on. Red sirspenders will do.
Post by: suepahfly(59692)
2008-03-14 04:53:54
damned, forgot about the suspenders :D
no wonder people didn't dare to kick my ass! they still recognized me somewhere underneath all this camouflage...

over here it's YELLOW suspenders you need. My shirt allready is red with dark blue checks (or what's it called?). Yellow suspenders stand out more.

(and there's a party in a neigbour-town that's called the suspenders party where you get free beer when you're wearing yellow suspenders... obviously the fly bought yellow suspenders for this yearly event :D)
Post by: denzil(82151)
2008-03-14 08:01:44
Think i will have to shop online to find yellow ones. No luck in our stores. The staff in the store looked at me funny when i asked them for the kit you spoke about. When i told them you get free beer because of it they said they will look into it. strange eh?
Post by: suepahfly(59692)
2008-03-17 05:13:49
They understand us :)
The yellow suspenders i have were specially ordered for me too :P
The party-crew picked something that wasn't available too much, hèhè. So i went to several stores, but there were none. I went in holland (the netherlands) and i found it weird they had none either!!! So i asked the store, and when i told them why i needed them they ordered them, free of charge :D
I did have to pay for the suspenders though, but it wasn't much!

And VOILA! i had free beer :)
Post by: denzil(82151)
2008-03-17 07:39:51
god bless google i found a set.

am drifting off to the Exit Light thread now. cya. we are a bit off topic
Post by: suepahfly(59692)
2008-03-17 16:32:59
of topic?
naaaaaah never!
Post by: Bruiser Brody(121422)
2008-04-04 11:48:10
Do away with the "minimum cost over time" idea. Make it a non linear progression with a set pricing system on moves. Then you could add the option to allow players to change their strat during the gameplay. For a set fee, allow a character to "re-allocate" spent funds on moves to create a revamped move list.
Post by: yar(35506)
2008-04-04 13:01:58
Wonderful Idea BB:)
Post by: denzil(82151)
2008-04-23 08:00:54
jim if you lock in prices what rate do you lock them in at the max or min or 50% of max etc. not sure what you mean realy. can you explain in a um dummer form please. i promus to not drink wile reading this next time
Post by: Bruiser Brody(121422)
2008-04-24 11:09:38
Max price is to stop people from buying alot of moves right off the bat, and to stimulate a players growth so that it "progresses".
I recommend changing how a players growth is directed.

Take the current minimum price of all moves and make them permanent. Cap the number of LMS/Cage matches that a LAW can accept/challenge to 50 (combined total), establish a 75 experience cap on challenging anyone lower than that in experience, establish a limit on how many TOTAL matches (total of individual AND tag team) that can be accepted between two accounts (IP's, yes this can be done), lower the dmg meter in LAW league and make the tournies free.

I STRONGLY recommend it be established that a character can ONLY challenge/accept with characters in their own LEAGUE, individual as well as tags and rumbles.
Post by: Bruiser Brody(121422)
2008-04-24 11:14:38
You can get away with limiting how many matches are fought between accounts(IP's), because there's such a huge population in the LAW league...unless of course the actual number of accounts created is a big fat lie created by a handful of scum multi's who like to cheat, then this league will definitely be "exposed" ;).
Post by: legendary wolf(38655)
2008-04-24 20:26:58
Dancing to electro pop like a robot from 1984
Post by: denzil(82151)
2008-04-25 02:30:39
1. i like the ip thingy becauses it locks down stuff and hits multis.

2. prob with pulling prices to min is its going to make it way easy to become a legend realy quick. not sure but if some one does the math of all moves on min price you will be be going back to law after sswo. not sure about this one. intresting.

3. if you do lower prices its gona make all the old vets look like rubbish because how fast players can go threw vow. or do you mean start prices at min and get dear as you go?
Post by: Captain Stupendous(38517)
2008-04-25 03:16:47
"I STRONGLY recommend it be established that a character can ONLY challenge/accept with characters in their own LEAGUE, individual as well as tags and rumbles."

Why impose restrictions when you can reward competition? Let each player's payout be directly proportional to their Exp./Win ratio. We can even get a bit nasty by fixing the zero limit at 2.5. Dip below 2.5 and you start LOSING money. ;)

CS's stats (2008-04-25):
W/L = 74.10%
Exp./Win = 4.358

Yes, that's right.
Post by: denzil(82151)
2008-04-25 07:11:31
getting 0 pay for a match under a set value might ok. but this will bite lots of vwo like Kish he will not be able to make any money unless he fights joker. then i bet there exp would be to wide.

not sure if it would work. but in the lower leagues it would.
Post by: Bruiser Brody(121422)
2008-04-25 07:40:43
Most of what I posted was relating to LAW and SPWA. Those 2 leagues are overflowing with talent. Rush them through faster and before you know it, PWO is full of action. The trickle effect would mean that SSWO league will be full of talent in a shorter period of time, and then VWO will reap the benefits eventually.

The changes would be tough for the vets at first, UNLESS you fully explain to them that it benefits the game as a WHOLE if the upper leagues get filled quicker and they will see a HUGE increase in opponents to challenge.

As long as it's allowed for leagues to challenge or accept players in lower leagues, you'll continue to see people "job" out some of their chars to friends in order that progression continues at the higher leagues.

As for the lost value to the legends list : The list lost it's luster along time ago. Seriously think about that statement when looking at how many "new" players are joining it in comparison to the same characters over and over :).
Post by: Bruiser Brody(121422)
2008-04-25 07:46:37
Why impose restrictions when you can reward competition?

They (restrictions) were never needed when the game was full at every league ;). There would need to be a reduction in money won from EVERY style of match after PWO to curb the Legend List explosion that you mentioned Denzil.
Post by: denzil(82151)
2008-04-26 06:47:19
I dont mind new players been on the legen list. if they do the work fine. good on them for doing it. may be you can change it to a 5 time legend list. for players that have gone threw all 5 times and allso done each style as peter whished in the first place.

i do see where your coming from but not sure if it will happen. this would need a masive push and builit proof documentation to show peter why and how. in the long run do you think peter could hook this game into face book. that way plit or vow can get more links to more players and a posable income for peter too

Post by: curtin(17603)
2008-04-28 09:33:49
As a long-term player and one-time donator, here's my views on the state of various games here: they're repetitive, kinda dull after a while and have limited replay features, which doesn't make for lots of long-term donators.

There are too many games on the 'net these days that allow for richer player-to-player interaction (other than chat), which allows more refined game-play. VOW, for example, doesn't have a lot of real tactical options available to the player, and beyond spending skill points, AF has virtually none.

Revitalizing the game will take some programming effort to bring in some tactical options for players to make it more of a "game" to be played, rather than meta-game options to be explored...otherwise, players will come in, be entertained for a while (and maybe donate) then go elsewhere once the click...click...click cycle of the games sets in.

As for $$$...well, PLIT Games is a business and if it has a product that the market will pay for, then it will get people paying. If the product is too expensive (or not worth buying), it will go under, it's that simple. At the end of the day though, I'm sure Peter has turned a tidy profit from PLIT Games; it's certainly not a labour of love.
Post by: Bruiser Brody(121422)
2008-05-01 21:46:48
The idea of revitalizing a product contains aspects on an overall view. if you go get your car tuned up, does the technician focus only on the engine? No. They look at every point of the car. Same should be done when making effective changes to a game. As you make an update to one aspect, so will the trickle effect happen to the other parts of the game, whether seen immediately or through long term.

An unsupervised update/change usually ends up with an unbalance somewhere. That's why tweaking is constant. To neglect a change to one aspect of a game in effect hinders any positive that might have been gained in the long run.

The age cap and restriction of usage by Legend bonus in the tournaments were solid ideas, unfortunately without additional tweaking to them or other aspects of the game in effect created other problems in VOW.
Over the last year, the game has seen a huge decrease in the playerbase evolving to the higher leagues. The trickle effect has produced several situations where even veteran players have taken to dishonest means in order to continue their characters progression. The actual number of accounts and characters created for this game is a bit misleading when you deduct donator alternates, multi's and detached characters (jobbers).
Post by: denzil(82151)
2008-05-10 23:01:41
as you can see by my ap total i still play but getting matchs is tuff. most of the time i cant be bothered huntting down matchs. i post in chat and if i dont get any well i head off. ye this is because chat is dead realy and that was the main part of the game. this game is log in do a few matchs and log out or stay and chat. so not sure. i will most likely have 100000 ap on my alts in a few months. and 30 k in ap on con. if you cant get matchs what about a bot to fight?

your talking about skill in the game. this is a long term game. where your healing match choices and move set are all the main stay of the game. so adding other twiks will make this a new game. not vow.
Post by: Bruiser Brody(121422)
2008-05-12 22:22:12
I guess, if you look at those online games that are most successful, you'll see one common denominator in all of them -- progression and evolution. All games must change from it's core design over time to enhance it's appeal and growth.

Guild Wars and Warcraft are alot different now than before with one common fact -- they play alot faster pace than from the original concept.

It's just my opinion, but VOW has to meet the demand of the new standard set in online games in order to survive. Two things are constant for games to success and grow now -- new content (or enhancing old ones) and a faster pace of progression.
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