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Forum: VOW Development & Design
Thread: New Moderation System
Post by: yar(35506)
2008-02-15 18:50:25
*THIS IS NOT A MOD BASHING THREAD, SO DON'T BASH THE MODS IN THIS THREAD*

I was thinking that maybe there is a better mod system, that encourages players to follow the rules, so here are my idea's for chat moderation.

The rules stay the same but how offenses are dealt with change. Multi accounting and other rule violations outside of chat stay the same.

For each chat violation a player is given a 30 min loss of chat priveledge.
They are given 2 such warnings with the 3rd being a 24 hour chat ban. (I understand this would take some coding as it would be too great of a undertaking for the mods to keep track of who gets their priveledges back and when.)

Each of the two 30 minute warnings are posted in chat. And a personal message sent by the system with a
link to the rules and regulations.

I think this would work very well, each person is given 2 time outs before the 24 hour ban, most people will stop before this and if not they will lose chat for 24 hours and can start fresh the next day. It is a fair solution to everyone involved.

Maybe there are better idea's or maybe the current system is best, post your Idea's, and please remember *NO MOD BASHING*



Post by: The Sniper(27754)
2008-02-15 20:15:35
I kinda like it, means those who are complaining about their chat being banned for no reason (No kish I'm not talking about you xD) 3 strikes and your out seems alot fairer, and much harder to argue against.

I might go a little harsher on it and say
1 strike - 30 min ban
2 strike - 24 hour ban
3 Strike - Ban at mods descretion

Obviously if people are blatently swearing and breaking the rules the mods can override the system and go for total ban whenever they like, but people who are doing relatively tame offenses would go through the ban system at the mods discretion. Thats the way I see it. But it really depends on if its a tool mods would use
Post by: The Legend Killer(21778)
2008-02-15 20:27:14
I was thinking something like this and would utilise an auto ban system.

- Split chat bans up into categories of severity
Examples:
noob bashing in chat,
links to external sites,
spam,
inappropriate language,
misc, etc.

Now, each of these would have their own severity rating (e.g. links to external sites could be pushed towards an account ban; basically a moderator referal). General spam wouldn't be looked at as harshly as inappropriate language.

- The chat mods remain in place. They're needed for any system to work.

- When a chat offense takes place, the mod will report like normal, but rather than just a suspension where the player will have to go e-mail and then there's the paper trail because players assume mods are mind readers and blah blah blah. Instead, there is an automatic suspension release dependant upon how many offences have fallen in either the account of the type of severity.

Example of general spam suspensions:
1st suspension - 1 hour
2nd suspension - 2 hours
3rd suspension - 24 hours
4th suspension - 7 days
5th suspension - Lockdown of chat

Getting banned once for spam is acceptable, however after that the player should have learnt. Therefore this is why there is big leaps from warnings 2-5. If you get banned 5 times for spamming the chat, then surely the rules aren't sticking.

Now, one problem I see with this is that players could easily deliberately break the rules and then just log off for the night. Punishment given but not rightfully served, so perhaps have the suspension run down while the account is logged onto the server (would only apply to suspensions 1 and 2).

- When trying to use the chat, and banned, you will be told when your suspension is over.

Example:
Your chat priviliges has been removed for {Insert reason}. Your chat priviliges will be returned at {Insert time}. For more information please contact the moderators at PLITGames@gmail.com.


- You cannot appeal suspensions 1, 2 or 5. They're set in stone penalties, however you may appeal suspensions 3 and 4, provided you have reasonable evidence to say that you were harshly treated with. If successful, the suspension will be reversed.

- We could go back to the old system where donators get a degraded suspension system (i.e. lesser suspension time) and former donators may get a little better treatment. I know this is open to a LOT of criticism, but they do pay for the site costs.

- Full suspensions would also work on the same system. However, they would work on a 3 strikes and you're out system. 3 suspensions for anything and it's no return. A very harsh way of looking at things again, but do you want someone coming back time and time again who is noob bashing or breaking rules?


Now, you could argue that this gives the chat mods a lot more power, however, for suspensions 3-5, a game moderator would have to acknowledge the suspensions. For this, the game moderators would have a new "tool" in which earmarks these higher level suspensions, plus any accounts which a moderator may suspect of being a multi account.


Anyway, please feel free to comment and hopefully this is a positive way of improving the moderator system. Let's face it, if we get this, we could have the mods working on better updates for the games ;)
Post by: yar(35506)
2008-02-15 20:28:08
I don't really like the unlimited ban or ban at mods discretion, i think it possibly has drove some people from the game, and i want a system that has structured ban times that is fair to every one, mods and players alike.



Heck even in prison you know your parole or discharge date. I dont think anyone ever warrants a perm chat ban, but thats just my opinion.



I think each offense should be dealt with individually, and not accrue, this a game and the motivation should be to motivate people to follow the rules not to punish them.

I do agree with alot of what you said ben. i think you have put more thought into it than I have hehe
Post by: jmallonee(34807)
2008-02-15 20:51:39
personally, I think the following is a better system. hit them where it hurts. tough on crime and all that



1st suspension - 1 hour + 10% of their ap is taken

2nd suspension - 2 hours + 20% of their ap is taken

3rd suspension - 24 hours + 50% of their ap is taken and no ap accrues while suspended

4th suspension - 7 days + 100% of their ap is taken and no ap accrues while suspended

5th suspension - Lockdown of chat
Post by: jmallonee(34807)
2008-02-15 20:52:43
now that's a system I can appreciate
Post by: The Sniper(27754)
2008-02-15 20:57:44
I reckon an automated system would need a warning for step one, and possibly a drivers license like system, like after a month you drop 1 place.
e.g. someones been banned for 24 hours if they then go 2 months without incident then post something they shouldn't again, they will have dropped back down 2 levels and recive the 2 hour penalty.


I myself have used terms before that I shouldn't have, but after a friendly reminder thats the end of it. That would be the only thing I would alter
Post by: Captain Stupendous(38517)
2008-02-15 23:22:36
AP penalties? Wow, I never would have thought of that!

Great ideas all around, but Jim's idea just brings a smile to my face.
Post by: tbragu(97303)
2008-02-16 05:15:08
at some point, true repeat offenders need to be punished permanently. If someone refuses to follow rules, and repeatedly, they don't keep their chat.
Post by: jmallonee(34807)
2008-02-16 05:51:05
:o)
Post by: yar(35506)
2008-02-16 06:58:05
"t some point, true repeat offenders need to be punished permanently. If someone refuses to follow rules, and repeatedly, they don't keep their chat"

And why is that? This is a game, the idea is to get people to join and play not force them to leave with too strict of rules. I could never be in favor of a perm chat ban, and for the same reason AP penalties is just going to far for my liking.
Post by: jmallonee(34807)
2008-02-16 07:42:33
without some kind of penalty all you would be doing is encourageing people to break the rules.
while it is true they would have a decision to make. it is theirs to make. no one is forceing them to break the rules. they do that on their own.
so an increasing penalty is required to make them understand that it isn't worth it to break the rules continually. most people once they understand the rules on penalties will realise it just isnt worth it.
and is the goal to keep players that contribute to the game or to keep players that only disrupt the game. I think the goal is to keep players that contribute to the game in a good way. not the other.
Post by: yar(35506)
2008-02-16 08:37:40
I can see where you are coming from, and to be honest I never said there should be no punishment.

I said there should be a increase in punishment for breaking rules, just not a permenant ban.

I think the times of your suspension should be the same depending on the rule, and I dont see a perm ban being good for the game or how people look at the game.

Sorry I disagree with you.
Post by: tbragu(97303)
2008-02-16 11:17:55
I fully understand where you are coming from on this Ray. I really do.

I am not saying that a ban like that should happen often, or even rarely to be honest. I think that in all honesty, if a person is aware of the rules(different subject, but still important to this) and gets banned, then comes back and repeats the infraction on numerous occassions(again, not a few times, but a lot). Then the possibility of it being permanent will have to be there.
Post by: yar(35506)
2008-02-16 13:00:12
Ya, if used judicially on rare occasions I can see where stiffer suspension times could be warranted, but they should be steps, maybe double for each 3rd suspension. So it isn't an
perm ban but a very lengthy one if said player doesn't play by the rules.
1 day
2 days
4 days
1 week
2 weeks
1 month
2 months
4 months etc...
Post by: tbragu(97303)
2008-02-16 13:16:57
That is the point I was getting at. Something like a permanent ban should not be thrown around freely, but a possible option if no other measure works.
Post by: The Legend Killer(21778)
2008-02-16 13:20:59
One thing you need to ask is where do you draw the line with players? Do you let them have 15 chat bans in the space of 6 months, or do you put a stop to it by locking down their chat for say 4 months and then making them earn it back with good behaviour (e.g. reporting rule breakers when the mods aren't around). There are a few people who are long term rule breakers, and to an extent they hide behind a lot of "cards" to avoid getting bans or having them reduced.

Question: should donator status or donations reduce a chat ban?
Post by: tbragu(97303)
2008-02-16 13:24:47
I think that donations should not have anything to do with someone keeping their chat. Rules are rules, and I will always say that.
Post by: jmallonee(34807)
2008-02-16 13:32:57
I am not a donator. but I think they should have a reduced penalty. after all it is because of them that this game stays online.
I dont think they should completely be able to just do what they want just a reduced penalty.
say if they was going to get a 24 hour ban, they would only recieve a 20 hour ban instead.
Post by: yar(35506)
2008-02-16 15:06:15
I remember when KOVOW played, he thought he could do anything because he was a donator and had friends in high places, I banned him anyway although it was'nt long till he had his chat back.

maybe donators should get an extra warning or two but once the big suspension comes they sghould serve it like anyone else because they knew better and broke the rules anyway.

I think most donators are respectful of the games rules and lead by example most of the time and wouldnt use up all there warnings.
Post by: Dyna Mike Duncan(127082)
2008-02-16 16:12:35
Whether a player donates or not, whether they are friends with Peter or the Mods, whether they have personal differences with the Mods etc etc etc shouldn't count when Bans are made.

Breaking the rules is breaking the rules whetehr you've donated nothing or a million dollars to the game
Post by: yar(35506)
2008-02-16 16:18:11
Thats the way it should be, but we all know the world evolves around money and concessions are made.
Post by: The Legend Killer(21778)
2008-02-17 11:13:11
See, the old system (when it was Scorp and Doug in charge), it was high, medium and low level warnings. Donators would have 2 levels knocked off their warnings. Although I do agree with some points, but not others. Rules are rules.
Post by: suepahfly(59692)
2008-02-17 17:39:36
can i bash the mods here?
i haven't read anything, except the part of 'no mod-bashing', so...

can i?
Post by: yar(35506)
2008-02-17 22:02:40
NOOOOOOOOOOOO lol
Post by: The Sniper(27754)
2008-02-18 19:10:39
And no spamming the chat either Suepahfly :)
Post by: suepahfly(59692)
2008-02-19 11:47:19
says who? :D
Post by: The Sniper(27754)
2008-02-20 20:02:49
Says the mighty swatter of the stars! Had lunch with him yesterday... be expecially aware as his swatter is pink... pink I say! :)
Post by: suepahfly(59692)
2008-02-20 21:10:08
Feesh? i tought he only existed in fairy tales!!!


aaaaaaargh *runs away and hides under the couch*
Post by: suepahfly(59692)
2008-02-20 21:14:04
Damned, i gave away my hiding spot now, didn't i? :(
Post by: The Sniper(27754)
2008-02-21 19:48:44
You should try some of his custard pie, its really quite good... well you should when you know he isn't sat by the couch waiting for you Tom & Jerry style. Course Tom usually lost these encounters despite the huge tactical advantage, but go figure.
Post by: denzil(82151)
2008-02-22 09:34:08
In my view if you do wrong you have to go by what rules are set and acept the conaquences of your own actions. If you did it you have to wear it. It could be a ban of time or A.P which i like as well. A automatic systom will make it cleare for the player in queston what he has done wrong. i have no probs with this it sounds awesome to me.

the donater question. do you or not give them leway?

"NO"

there just like other players and the automatic systom will deal with it just like the others and there is no extra codeing for peter as well as a bonus too.

Long term bans well this is the call of the main mods. They go by the ruleing of what the owner wants. This is nagoshable of course if Peter whishes to change his views on Plitgames.
Post by: detroit maniac(233270)
2008-02-22 11:21:05
So, reading through this thread, I thought "Would any of this change what players do?" And to be honest, I think that this would only cause more players to do things in chat that would get them banned. It's only an hour or 2 right? But there are no incentives for actually following chat rules. Yeah, chat may be a privilege, but it would be nice to get a little more for following them. I suggest nothing big, just a couple hundred ap after 2 months? That could, if it works out as well as it did in my brain, really cut down on offenses.

Just my 2 cents really :D
Post by: suepahfly(59692)
2008-02-22 13:19:16
You have a point there :)
When i started reading your post, i was like "giving free stuff for following the rules? how gay is that"...
But your argument about that giving them things really might lower the offenses really turned my opinion around.

But then again, i twised to the old self again when i think (and i'm pretty sure about it) that this will only stop 1 or 2 regular offenders from doing it :)
The others don't care or just leave the game after an houre anyway.



and your "It's only an hour or 2 right?"...
don't think you get of THAT easily, hahaha :D
Post by: The Legend Killer(21778)
2008-02-22 16:57:40
I've always been a fan of giving a 1 week free donation status to those who have a clean record. This could be limited if it's needed.

But this is why I said that more bans should/must equal a suitable punishment. Not very good for player X to have his 10th chat ban in 4 months and yet is still getting unsuspended after 1 week. Nothing from stopping a player from taking a week away from the game.

Yes, a perm ban is harsh and should only be given on special circumstances, but let's face it, without naming names, I can only think of three people who are excessive chat rule breakers.
Post by: denzil(82151)
2008-02-23 05:33:30
well i see the auto ban a good tool because it lets chat mods take players out of game for a wile. so if this hapens awesome. call it a cool down time. allso you should have a ban counter. if the counter goes over a set limit this player is red flagged for the main mods to deal with them. Then the mods do what is set by Peters rule set.

To many players take the ban happly because they know when they log in next time after there ban they have full ap or crap loads of ap. if you get a ban your ap should be turned off as well. Ye they did do something wrong. so spanky spanky time. not just go to your room and come back later and have some pizza and a bottle of red with us. its no problem taking a few days off any game. its not like your char looses stats etc. You never know taking stats off peopl might work too. who knows.
Post by: yar(35506)
2008-02-23 14:45:24
I am trying to change the focus from people getting banned, to smaller sanctions but possably more frequent to try to motivate people to follow the rules.

And even though your opinion remind me of the current system I will respect your opinion.

Edited by DARKLORD
Post by: Captain Stupendous(38517)
2008-02-24 15:44:55
Edit: I still like pies.
Post by: yar(35506)
2008-02-24 19:36:15
""I personally believe that the Denzil's ideas are actually sound ones, as he is mainly talking about adding mod tools that will just give the mods more flexibility and reduce their workload by a good degree. Tools that make one's job easier are just too appealing to turn down.

What is truly needed, as you've been suggesting, are less strict interpretations of the rules to raise morale and improve the general atmosphere in all of PLIT Games."


(posted for a member who did'nt want their name published)"
Post by: Dyna Mike Duncan(127082)
2008-02-24 21:16:37
Get caught breaking the rules, pay the price.



Continue to break the rules, pay a higher price.



Don't learn from your mistakes and carry on breaking the rules, just take all privileges away from these players!!



What those prices/lost privileges are is down to Peter + the Main Mod team. Simply put, if you don't like the punishments for breaking the rules, don't break the damn rules in the first place!

(Posted by somebody who doesn't care less who knows these are my views)
Post by: yar(35506)
2008-02-24 22:20:04
why dont you just build a virtual gas chamber?
Post by: denzil(82151)
2008-02-25 00:48:10
Hi Ray nice to cya about bud. hope your well. Ye your right any mod tools are wellcome. automatic tools are the best. set and forget. then sed player deals with the time he has off.

I think the main problem is repeat ofenders. and what do we mean by repeat. over 5 or 10 or 20 or 50 ban's?

Well after Peter sets a rule for the mods which he already may have done i am sure the mod team will take it into the game. i am talking about repeat ofenders ok.

I see Rays point fully and its a good one. But i have seen the bad side of players in game when I had no choices back in the day apart from large bans. Reform ! does Reform work in real life? Do people that go to jail learn there leson and behave? I would realy like to think so but most of the time its a place for learning crime. its the same in gameing. players learn how to rought the game and abuzz the laws. So some times it has to be a iron hand of death as Ray says the gas chanber. realy if you bring it on your self . well take responsabilty for your own actions. i do. Ray does John Ben Mike all do. This is why lots of us have been mods over time.
Post by: yar(35506)
2008-02-25 03:28:02
Ok good point Denzil, maybe more lenient to start with and harder for repeat offenders.
I must be going soft in my old age lol

I think making the mod system have automatic tools, is good. But there will always be those people that mods have to intervein and deal with personally.

I have talked with alot of the mods, since I know who they are and most of them are for stricter rules and punishment. At first I felt they were burnt out from their job and just wanted to ban them to get it over with, but maybe they feel that is all people understand, maybe the only real deterant for habitual rule breakers are long bans? Maybe it is best for the game just to silence known rule breakers so their negetive effect on the game is limited.
I think overhauling the mod system is needed, give the mod's more tools while it is being redone:)
Post by: Dyna Mike Duncan(127082)
2008-02-25 05:53:56
There are some players who just don't learn from their mistakes - whether that be continously spamming chat, abusing other players in chat, by PM, on profiles etc or by multi-accounting time + again.

No matter what punishments are doled out by the Mods (either manual or hopefully in the future automatic) they still continue to do the same things time + again.

These players are punished, they serve their punishment, get their privileges back and guess what? They break the rules again. How many chances are these players supposed to get? How many times are the Mods supposed to show leniency towards them? How much abuse from these consistent rule-breakers are the Mods supposed to take before they say enough is enough?

One of the definitions of insanity is to continue doing the same thing over + over and expect a different result!

A permanent chat ban should only be used in extreme circumstances I agree, and should only be used for those players who just don't seem able to follow the rules - whatever their reasons.
Post by: The Legend Killer(21778)
2008-02-25 08:04:13
"One of the definitions of insanity is to continue doing the same thing over + over and expect a different result!"

French Rugby Union team vs England :D


But yeah, I would like to see the mods have a lot more tools. I could reel about 10 off the top of my head now, but they'd never get added. Probably cause a lot would be seen as a very harsh addition for rule breakers.

What we have to appreciate here is that everyone will have contrasting views about how to deal with rule breakers. Those who have worked behind the scenes, doing the e-mails, taking the abuse from players who have the maturity level well beyond this game's appropriate level, trying to balance work, moderating and the development side of the game. But at the minute, this perfect balance is slanted right across the board from Peter right down to the chat mods (I guess). Work and moderating get in the way of allowing the game to develop.

In a perfect world, yes, we would have a moderator (or two) who would stay around for 8 hours a day, then switch over to another moderator in another time zone and then when their 8 hours are up, they switch to the next moderator. E-mails would get answered within hours, although I guess this is probably also the fault of the players who expect the mods to be mind readers with a dozen e-mails along the lines of "Give me my chat back now!", no apology, no sorry, no "I will behave in future", heck no account details for the mods to use.

However, we know the world isn't perfect. Mods have to chase up multi abusers, chase up players who think that the Mods are some kind of mind reader (as stated above).


To be honest, from a general stance it looks like this (no offense intended), those who have been caught by the mods for rule breaking are just looking for an immediate scapegoat and the easy target is the moderators. Seriously, if you ask repeat chat offenders (such as ... actually I won't name names, could be troublesome) why they get banned. The immediate response is that its the mods being trigger happy. Rarely do I see a player hold his hands up and admit that a chat ban was their fault. And what do we get as a result, we get immature players making comments like this:

"Most oligarchy dictatorships encourage revile against those opposing recurring subjugation"

Or we get those who try to claim bullying is their reason for the backlash against the mods.

OK, I've said enough. People will soon be claiming that I have personal vendettas, but I don't. To be honest, I've not got the time or the room in my life to hold vendettas. And now I'm straying off topic so I better hit the "Send It" button :)
Post by: tbragu(97303)
2008-02-25 11:57:14
In a perfect world, there would be automated bans, public mods who aren't attacked, and mostly players who follow the rules. Sadly, we aren't in a perfect world.

None of those things save one are around. So what do you do to truly try and fix it?

The fact is, the best moderators are players who care. Not just the people with the right to ban, but the players who have to be subject to spammers, people with horrid language, bashers, and multis. When I first started playing, the mods were public. Two of them openly, and publicly hated each other. But the players mostly looked out for one another, and reported the jerks who came along and broke the rules. As time has passed, that has gone away to a point.

Should all the rules be posted together, so that there is no argument of what is and isn't a rule? Yes

Would it be easier to automate the banning/unbanning timeframe? Yes.

Should people honestly just follow the rules so that there isn't an issue of getting unbanned? You bet your bippy.

Who wants to bet these three things will most likely not be done any time soon?

*raises hand*
Post by: Dyna Mike Duncan(127082)
2008-02-25 12:11:57
And who are made to look like the villains in all this?

The people who break the rules?
The people who abuse the Mods when all they're trying to do is keep the peace?

Or the team of moderators?
Post by: yar(35506)
2008-02-25 13:00:07
John this thread was'nt made to blame anyone, but I will say it is never just one side that has made mistakes.
Post by: The Legend Killer(21778)
2008-02-25 14:16:40
Take away the mods, you have anarchy. Simple as.
Post by: suepahfly(59692)
2008-02-25 15:27:53
Take away the players :D No more problems with people abusing chat! :D
Simple as.

(don't tell me you didn't see that one comming from me! hahaha)
Post by: Dyna Mike Duncan(127082)
2008-02-25 15:37:55
I didn't say that both sides don't make mistakes - but when it comes to multi-time rulebreakers, and to a lesser degree those players who defend them, it is always the Mods that bear the brunt of the flack that flies about.

Yes, players have been punished in the past when perhaps they have only been defending themselves against being attacked by other people. There are times when players have avoided being punished because a mod wasn't online to witness it or it hasn't been reported. There may even have been times when Mods have turned a blind eye to some breaches of the rules for whatever reason (friendship, the rule-breaker was given additional leeway because they had previously donated a lot to the game, and maybe even because the Mods knew the player in question would kick up too much of a stink if they were punished).

None of that gives any player the right to continuously break the rules or snipe at the Mod team at every opportunity and not expect any comeback.

As Ben said, without the Mods, VOW would quickly descend into Anarchy. No Chat Mods = chat full of spam, swearing, name calling, racial slurs, sexual innuendo etc etc etc

People are quick to jump on the Mods' case as soon as they think they or one of their friends is being harshly treated, or moan about the lack of Mod presence if chat is full of abuse etc. Seems to me that whatever the Mods do, they can't win.
Post by: yar(35506)
2008-02-25 16:34:49




Post by: yar(35506)
2008-02-25 17:01:00
Well might as well lock this discussion, it went good for awhile but obviously some people cant handle a mature discussion and have taken it personal.
And I refuse to lower myself to that level, so I will think of another subject to post about later or might even revisit this one.
Post by: Dyna Mike Duncan(127082)
2008-02-25 17:39:40
Maybe not a Mod Bashing thread, just a thread bashing the current rules/punishments and the way those rules/punishments are currently interpreted and enforced - a very subtle difference I admit.

Not sure if you took your post down yourself Ray, or if it was one of the Mods who did it, but I'm not really concerned about that - you're entitled to your opinion just as much as anybody on VOW. I'd taken nothing personally on this thread until your penultimate post, but my suspicion is that you only raised this issue for a personal reason - where was the outcry when people were given long term/permanent chat bans in the past?

The fact we disagree about this issue shouldn't detract from anything else.

We both agree something needs to be done on VOW to cure the current malaise - but I don't believe giving multi-time abusers of the rules a little smack on the wrist every time they break the same rules works - especially when they find other means (forum posts, e-mails, wrestler profiles, other people) to continue their mod-bashing and complaining.

I've said many times, on many other topics that the rules should be made more visible/accessible - but the fact remains that the people that long term chat bans are imposed upon already know the rules - just how do we stop them?
Post by: The Legend Killer(21778)
2008-02-25 19:28:24
Maybe a healthy discussion of the rules is also a good thing? It might help allow players (and mods - both chat and game) to see the different interpretations of various aspects within the game.

As long as it doesn't turn into a name dropping, mod bashing or personal quabble between players, then maybe healthy debating is good for the community?
Post by: Dyna Mike Duncan(127082)
2008-02-25 20:26:07
A fair point - but healthy debate is only useful if it leads to something constructive. And, in all honesty, what are the chances of that?

Changes to the rules/accessibility of the rules etc have been debated time + time again, suggestions raised and nothing of any significance (so far at least) has changed.

Major issues/debating points as I see them are:

Nobody has to read the rules before they can play;
the rules on the Forum and on the Mod profiles differ slightly;
the rules are open to interpretation (by individual players + individual mods alike);
the punishments do not appear to be consistent;

Is it really worth causing potential squabbles/arguments/ill-feeling going over the sae old ground again if nothing is going to change?

If, however, we can be promised changes/clearer guidelines, then I'll quite gladly add my opinions
Post by: denzil(82151)
2008-02-25 20:33:44
Ray John. Be nice. just try to stay on topic ok. your both buds of mine and its dam sure you two lads just dont jell. thats ok. just keep it off here ok. just facts guys. no snide coments are needed. I need not say no more on this fact.

Talking about rules is a good idea.

What part of them shall we start with. I my self do not like the leagle coments that are vaig and open to all sorts of interpratahion. it needs a re write for sure. Hell its not going to be me doing it becuse i struggle to spell my own name. so i am sure some ideas from the rules could be re posted page or paragraf by pargraf. if this happens you m might be able to post the first one and get feed back on it. and say 3 to 5 vets do a judging of it. if the hole draft gets done this way you shoud submit it to peter. then get his views. I am sure In Peters eyes the rules he has now are fine. but there is allways room for improvement.
Post by: yar(35506)
2008-02-25 21:12:05
Actually Denzil, 99% of the time me and john get along fine, we just see this a little differant.

And I agree alot of the contention comes from the rules themselves, they are open to interpretation of individuals, Possably the head mod team could get together and have a meeting with all mods and say ok this is what we are inforcing, rule 1 says... and this is what we understand it to mean and thats what we will be enforcing. Of course consistancy would be the key:)

I concider myself for the most part a friend of the mods, in the past I have been a little outspoken against what I percieves as an injustice against one of the mods, but I havent raised any problems to Peter in a very long time and just accepted things the way they are, with the belief that the mods are doing the best they can within the system they have to work within and i believe that.

In the end I support the mods decisions, because I do know they have a very tough and thankless job.
Post by: denzil(82151)
2008-02-26 05:24:18
ye i know its tuff watching some thing you enjoy go threw a tuff patch. Ye I know Ray some times values and thoughts can get spoken against. it can be tuff to rebut things and do it nicely. I am sure you lads can work it out or just spank each other in the ring before comeing in here. who ever wins gets bragging rights that night ? eh?

The problem is making the owner understand why his rules seem vaig thee way they are. To me there clear but to nit picking pains in the ass players that always try to rought the systom it is a book of scribble. it states one thing but can be interprated sevel difrent ways. I surpose the mods could do a sit down in the mod center forum and hash this out. am not privy to this and they most likely are doing this as we speak.

I am not sure if you now this but english is not Peters native tung. As far as Peter understands the rules are 100% clear. To most normal players that read the rules its clear and the mods do not have much work. so its never simple to work with Peter. Yes his a awesome guy but he thinks like a owner! lol ☻ I think it is just tuff for him with a full time job etc. if every thing was placed in black and white for him and they spoke about the re write of the rules i am sure he would do it. who knows. its up to Peter and the mod crew to do the work.
Post by: legendary wolf(38655)
2008-02-26 17:49:40
*l'bash*
Post by: suepahfly(59692)
2008-02-27 11:09:29
and i'm too lasy to read all of this. except for part where ray says it gets too personal for some people and then that last part, where denze says pete thinks like an owner...

i'm not responding or argueing in here you know :D
I just mentionned i read those 2 things :P



i can do that...
i'm cool!
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