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Forum: VOW Development & Design
Thread: Differing move values?
Post by: Loincloth Legend(122263)
2006-02-04 11:17:28
Ive just started using a trad charachter (more ot of principle than anything) but the thing ive found is, though you all say that its better to fight Singles matches throughout, they dont pay well. And as sub and pin moves are the most expensive on the game it takes longer to save for moves. Therefor harder to win the further you progress (I know thats part of the challenge of a trad!)

But how about moves being slightly cheaper or hitting min at different times for different wrestler types

e.g: PG hits min on strength moves earlier, Trad hits min for pin moves earlier etc..

Means there would be more reward for trying different styles based on your style and wrestler preferance?
(Just a thought)
Post by: Captain Stupendous(38517)
2006-02-04 11:30:22
There are a lot of things that can be done to improve this game, and your idea isn't a bad one. In fact, I think it's pretty good! However, the implementation of THIS particular idea would mean that all of VOW would have to be revamped.

Coding is a lot of work and I HATE it with a passion. :D
Post by: Loincloth Legend(122263)
2006-02-04 11:41:12
All responses are welcome bud, just im trying with a Trad as i really want to and its hard work trying to get cash to be competetive at spwa level as theres such a large gap between top and bottom

I am nearing 150 exp and only have around $1500

Trads aren't good for LMS or Cage as they have no real damage moves to speak of.
In reality there is little incentive to use a trad as the frustration of getting nowhere outweighs the pin bonus

Just trying to get some ideas (feasible if possible lol) going to make the game more interesting

At the minute the other styles have a massive advantage as they afford the player chance to fight the high value matches and buy the big hitting moves and subs etc which are too expensive for trads who are doing singles

Unfortunately most of my ideas involve codeing, like extra cash bonus for singles as Trad style, ladder for Aerialist and so on

Never mind, im sure ill think of 1 feasible idea before my time here is done lol
Post by: ocelot(76)
2006-02-04 12:33:34
The problem here is the case of Tradescular disease aka Trads suck

Now lots of people have said that trads arent good and such and the reason why is because it doesnt have a type of move that particularly goes with the style.

When I made this style it was going to be the style that would be generic meaning that it could use all moves without remorse. Every other style progresses in some aspects in the game while are weak in another. the trad is supposed to be open minded in choosing moves. In fact a strong trad is able to utilize every move and hit them successfully. thus if a trad can execute any move successfully then the whole lockerroom of moves is useful to them and if that is so, then that means you do not have to worry about being countered (unless facing a tech) or buying a useless move that will always be countered. And if you can hit any move successfully in a match then you will do enough damage so that the pin advantage will ultimately be effective.

Now to your complaint that trads could only fight in singles. and yes its true. when starting out you could mostly only do singles but once you reach a certain stage you will be able to take on any style in any match.

I know you think its unfair but you are not considering the other styles. PG for example is excellent in cages. but a new pg might lose a whole lot of singles. so a pg player can only fight in cages for a while until he is experienced enough to fight in singles. Now I know you think its still ok because you get a ton of money in cages but think again, they have spend a ton of ap to accept the cage matches and then a ton of ap for injuries and healing costs.

So in conclusion there really isnt anything wrong with using a trad, its how you use it.
Post by: Captain Stupendous(38517)
2006-02-04 13:30:27
You are forgetting the factor of experience when comparing singles and non-singles matches. When advancing through the ranks, especially during the early game, it really is more rewarding to participate in non-singles matches since experience advancement is capped at +5 per win.

Whom between Wrestler A and Wrestler B is superior, assuming the following criteria?
- Both wrestlers have won 60/60 matches at +5/win and are each at 300 exp.
- Wrestler A has participated in only singles matches.
- Wrestler B has participated in only LMS matches.

Wrestler B is superior of course, due to the vast amount of money he/she has accumulated. Wrestler B will have an advantage over Wrestler A until retirement since he/she will have purchased more moves than Wrestler A.

Also, people tend to look at their opponent's experience level when considering potential matches. Less observant players will likely be in for a painful surprise if they underestimate the well-equipped Wrestler B.

Loincloth Legend:
I was just telling someone earlier today that the Trad of early VOW originally had a higher Con stat than anyone else. For some reason or another, this advantage was lost over time.

If I were to modify the Trad, I would ditch the increased pin chance and just make the Trad perfectly balanced with respect to the other styles. This way, the Trad would not be limited to a career as a singles specialist and would then be able to challenge the rest of the VOW roster in the full variety of match types.

Believe me, there are A LOT of good ideas out there, but unfortunately the labor involved in keeping VOW a continually evolving product is too much for Peter to handle, considering that managing PLIT Games is NOT his full-time job.
Post by: ocelot(76)
2006-02-04 20:04:18
For your statement Stupendous you have to remember that over time accumalated the trad will still be gaining in the matter that the PG cannot utilize arial moves at anypoint so over time if that pg wants to retire he will eventually have to buy those moves which will negatively affect his chances of winning.

A great example of what a trad can do is Kabraken, With his stats and full list of moves he is able to use all moves to his advantage in a singles match with the help of his increased pin chance and in other types of matches , while each other style will have some difficulty pulling off certain moves (particulary the arial moves) the Trad will almost always win in any occasion.

And I do want to point out that I did make the con for a trad higher than any other type but over time each style has had the same con.
Post by: Loincloth Legend(122263)
2006-02-04 23:36:53
That wasnt when i meant Oce, i dont think Trads are useless. If i did i wouldnt be trying one lol

I agree completely with you on the stats part, all i mean is during LAW and SPWA for example, you couldnt take on an Aerialist in an LMS or cage unless you noob bash due to the lack of your high hitting moves and their abundance

Therefore its safer to stay with singles where you have an even win chance

But as you get experienced quicker without making the money you simply cant afford to buy the bigger moves when they hit min to compete in such a big division.

The only real way it can be achieved is to VERY carefully select who you face, but this can mean only a few matches a week

My main 2 charachters are PG and Aerialist so it doesnt bother me either way, using a Trad as an experiment more than anything

But to emphasise Captains point i have a record of 41-20 and am 160 exp with only $1560 saved, whereas The Actuary(94301) has 161 exp but has $8089 saved.

Just trying to get an idea where it all evens itself out and gives this style a reason to be used by people other than regs trying it out and legends which are too few and far between

Im afraid the Trad will become a dying breed (OMG keeps having to beg for people to join the Trad tourneys)
Post by: Kueller(13231)
2006-02-05 01:37:19
Trads arent that bad, allthough what Oce says is mostly untrue. Trads are not the best balanced chars in the game (Techs have higher tech, sub and aerial stats and equal strength, so if any style gets that title, it's gotta be the techs).
Trads essentially start of with the worst movepackage of all the styles (this could be changed easily), thus making them rather weak at the start.
Trads used to get less injuries than the rest (something like a free lvl1 doc) - that was removed because it was felt that trads were dominating the game.
The pin advantage is very helpful toward the end of the game when you will fight mostly singles. Trads are mostly end-game chars.
The only thing you can do to max your chances as a trad is to buy lots of pin moves early to get the most of your advantage - and other than that just hope for the best :D
What you can do, is speculate on a quick win and put docs on lvl1. When you have a lot of pin and subs, most singles will end quickly and the 20% extra cash you get for sacrificing the one lvl of doc can help you make a lot of money quickly (allthough it is a bit risky). This can work quite well...

Post by: lazy(27024)
2006-02-05 01:38:09
Yeah, but if there were a match with everyone with all the moves, who would you think would win?
Stiff Neck
Power Grappler

I'd say Trad since they have the most equal balance of stats, but I do agree they have a horrible start, I mean incredibly horrible, heck with Jake Davis(23280) when he was a Double Crown Champion


SPWA Trad champion

I fought a LAW with 50 con, and lost in a ladder match!

The only matches I could win were singles, but I do remember beating a PG around my exp, in a Tables Match when we were both PWO....
Post by: Kueller(13231)
2006-02-05 01:42:35
A big problem is also that the decision of removing the trads other bonus was based on the fact that 3/4 of the top-exp people were trads. This was at a time when there was still growth at the top (ie the best wrestlers had about 4k exp) and Peter wanted to pretend trads from distancing everyone else.

Nowadays, getting a lot of exp is not that great of an advantage, since there are allways people with more exp than you. People with lower exp tend not to fight you, so gaining exp quickly brings you NO advantage anymore. This makes singles wrestlers (read trads) somewhat obsolete...
Post by: Kueller(13231)
2006-02-05 01:43:18
Trads do NOT have the best balance in stats, Techs do!!!
Post by: Kueller(13231)
2006-02-05 01:44:23
As for who would win - singles match is anyones game, non single match would probably see the SN take the win
Post by: lazy(27024)
2006-02-05 11:54:40
What Scorp said.
Post by: ocelot(76)
2006-02-05 15:14:56
Techs are not the most balanced, although they have somewhat better stats, their damage ratio is very low.
Post by: ocelot(76)
2006-02-05 15:16:39
and to answer lazy's question, if it were a singles match trads would win
Post by: lazy(27024)
2006-02-05 15:26:26
Def Oce.

But if it were another, they'd get beat incredibly bad.
Post by: denzil(82151)
2006-02-05 15:45:03
well i am going to try a trad again. this will be my third one. i got to spwa and stalled both times. i can say the pay sucks as a trad. the way past it might be $300 worth of ap to get past the nullzone.
Post by: The Legend Killer(21778)
2006-02-05 18:33:18
It depends how you build your wrestler. If you buy some good moves early on, you can be a very strong trad wrestler. When I first started LK, I had dragon screw, spinebuster and SDL and I faired well.
Post by: ocelot(76)
2006-02-06 19:31:00
exactly LK i remember a ton of trads did well before, but today's trads are just too lazy to buy different types of moves
Post by: Kueller(13231)
2006-02-06 20:33:40
How is their damgage ratio lower than that of any other char???????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Kueller(13231)
2006-02-06 20:41:27
And no, the trad would not be the most likely to win.

PG - does more damage - thus he has a higher chance to pin you (pins depend on con)
Aerialist&Tech - higher hitchance than trad - hitting more moves leads to higher pin AND higher subchance
SN - takes less dmg - is thus harder to pin and harder to sub
Post by: lazy(27024)
2006-02-07 06:14:30
Than TRADS are the worst overall....
Post by: Kueller(13231)
2006-02-07 07:40:20
imho yes
Post by: gruchul(66928)
2006-02-08 05:51:35
Trads probably are the worst overall. Worst stats overall (except PGs), and some of them don't even make sense. Why do techs get higher aerial stats? Makes no sense at all.
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