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Forum: VOW General
Thread: Why VOW went boring
Post by: The Sniper(27754)
2005-02-06 02:43:28
I figured out why VOW became boring and irritating! Everyone only buys the best moves as directed to them by the more seasoned players of VOW, all characters are the same except for their name and ID thereby eliminating the interesting side of the game.

The game is no longer is building YOUR character but about building the romantic ideal for VOW success. Their is no individuality or uniqueness. Some may start off with these ideals but soon have them squashed by the never ending losses and unbelievable frustration that comes from such an idea.

People always buy Piledriver, Bear Hug, Superplex, Diving Headbutt and every single sub and pin move they can find. This is what kills the game. All specials are the most effective specials and all matches end with a quick pin or lucky sub. Those who follow their own mind wind up on the suffering end from these "Boringly Great" superstars and either quit or go boring themselves.

I would urge players to start making their own decisions and making their characters truly theirs but considering I said such players will lose then no one will. All I can say is I hold my head up high in the knowledge that I am myself in the losing domain, not a clone of the winning domain.
I thank you for your time and hope I made some sense. Your fellow gamer

The Sniper
Post by: Brian Allan(45150)
2005-02-06 07:19:10
I know where you're coming from Sniper. You do see a lot of people with the same moves and things. When you reach SSWO that's to be expected. Everyone is so close to legend status in SSWO that's virtually impossible to be so unique. Think back to SPWA and LAW and you'll probably be as unique as you're ever going to be.



I myself have been building up around my style. You're an aerialist, and I'm sure you have all of the moves by that type. I just happen to be a tech and have all the subs, because they go with my type of wrestler. I don't think you can blame people for that type of thinking.



As for finishers, I agree. I see a lot of wrestlers with Piledriver, Chokeslam, and Spear as finishers, and it does seem to get generic after a while. I myself have Chop, Bulldog, Diving Headbutt and Rg's (which was a big mistake on my part) as finishers. I'd say the ones I've got are "unique" as it's going to get. I don't see a lot of wrestlers with Chop, Bulldog and such as finishers.



I don't blame anybody for that though. A lot of people buy certain moves and specilize them because THEY want to, not because somebody else told them to. I guess that's where a lot of people get the wrong idea.



Anyway, that's just my take on the whole subject.
Post by: Div(17156)
2005-02-06 08:35:56
When i started my Wrestler i tried to make him as close to the real ChrisBenoit as possible. I think i did it well.
1st Few moves were RG's, Diving Headbutt and Crossface.
1st Specialized move was the Headlock and i named it Crippler Crossface and 2nd Special was Diving Headbutt into the Benoit Diving Headbutt.

What i think is making the game boring is not being able to change your name.
Seriously whats a bad thing about it??
I think Peter is thickheaded and only adds his ideas
Look at staff. What a crapass idea that is. Every1 goes Docs only in matches so what the hell is the point??
Post by: Coneman(325)
2005-02-06 08:49:55
Here come's Cone's 2 cents :D

VOW went boring for a number of reasons.

Let's start with the one that angers me most. Submissions...

While you say it's realistic I don't think that if I'm pummeling someone into the ground and their on the verge of being KO'd that they wuld suddenly lock in a figure 4 and beat me.

2. Staff

The reason that Shamrock left...I think.

He left after staff were added and said that he just got bored and staff were pointless.
While docs are good for less injuries, it's pointless.

Retirements- what is this gonna do? solve a short term problem? Eventually everyone will retire (provided they dont get bored and leave) and then it will be crap.

There's my opinion

Post by: Fangblast(13923)
2005-02-06 08:59:34
Its true VOW has become boring and irritating. Iím not sure why Iím even playing anymore. I came really close to quitting and finding some other game to waste my time on like 5 times in the last 7 days. At the moment Iím getting back into it a bit but itís just so dullÖPeter please make VOW futuristic. Lol We need a new VOW like before, but this time instead of VOW 2Ö VOW 3000! Robots, mutants, cyborgs, aliens, poltergeists (?wtf), half magic half machine weapons and body parts, zero-gravity cage matches... Canít you see VOW became boring and it made me crazy!? I guess even if Peter had time to redo VOW somehow eventually it would come back to this problem. Maybe, just maybe something one day will get done and it will be sorted so wrestlers can be more unique, and all these other problems/complaints are sorted and we all live happily ever after.
Post by: mistahspeddles(20309)
2005-02-06 10:54:01
Sham left because things got too repetitive and he had too much ap to know what to do with it. It was right after all those presents Peter handed out for things. I kinda can see where he was coming from through that VOW event, it totally tired me out from the game.

Fangblast is smoking the good stuff I see.
Post by: Coneman(325)
2005-02-06 11:00:25
Lol...this is what vow is like.

Log on, check tourneys if i had any.

Get disappointed by crappy results, even though i will outdamage someone by like 40 damage...(even in the cage and ladder) i lose.

get angry.

change staff and fight some matches

vote as soon as i can

change staff before i log off overnight

thats scattered over a day...now i see how its boring
Post by: Nethaven(53734)
2005-02-06 13:11:57
I think that there should be a official Roleplaying that people (And are SSWO and are selected by the GMs) take real maches and dosen't take away any damages or moves or anything but just makes it sound cool. But about pin and subm... I think they should just figure out some code that'll make it so that the lower your consc the better the chance of it happening.
Post by: Jaysen Chambers(46756)
2005-02-06 15:49:00
Benoits post struck me the most when he said, and I quote

"I think Peter is thickheaded and only adds his ideas"

I agree. Staff? Wrestlers don't have staff... This isn't boxing junior, there's no rounds, and doctors don't attend to the wrestler inbetween the match, nor is any strategy taken into play.

Anyways, I still think that Peter needs to focus on the main problems of the game, rather then the pointless features like donating 30k gets you a new member in your stable.

I still think that a more advanced match selection would do the trick for a brief while at least such as the ability switch submissions on or off, or pinfalls on or off, then again, how many of you actually believe that Peter is going to take this in to consideration?
Post by: Coneman(325)
2005-02-06 17:34:35
Yeah, match settings like off the WWE games. Full example.

Pins - on/off
Subs- on/off
KO- on/off

Only problem would be it'd be much harder to find fights.
Post by: Div(17156)
2005-02-06 18:02:33
Another thing that should be added.. More moves..
But that will kinda screw up the people who have already retired.
Maybe after you retire and have your 2nd wrestler there are more moves to buy or something along the lines of that :S
Post by: The Legend Killer(21778)
2005-02-07 04:26:58
Now for LK's two pence.

Staff:
The inclusion of staff has been pointless in my eyes. Why didn't Peter just knock down the injuries a little. I mean in the old days, 20 damage was enough to give stat damage.

Moves:
1. Tourneys are now a case of - "first to hit a sub wins". No longer is it the case of the best wrestler wins the matches and the tourneys. OK, sometimes, it is good to see an upset, but when it gets to someone with all the moves, getting beat by someone who has just all the subs.... it gets pointless.

2. I would like to see more moves become available to retired wrestlers, or even make moves that are accessible to only wrestlers of a specific type (eg - more aerial moves for aerialists). Also, maybe moves that need specific stats to gain

(Worked example:

Aerialist stat required: 45
Moves available at 45 stat - tornado DDT, Frog Splash, Suicide Dive (all cost say $3000 and max at 15 damage)

X buys Frog Splash therefore cannot buy the other 2 EVER! )


Match types:
I would like to see more match types/variations. BUT, I find it can be very difficult to get people away from singles as they get further along. I had to make my SN into a singles wrestler from a cage wrestler, because NOBODY with equal experience wanted to fight in a cage.

I could go on and talk about the people that have bought over 100k AP, but that would be walking on very thin ice with some people.
Post by: Div(17156)
2005-02-07 12:52:54
I really like your idea about moves.. too bad Peter wont add players ideas
Post by: Coneman(325)
2005-02-07 12:53:41
That's some uber hatrid towards Peter :S

uber...lol :D
Post by: beggar(46408)
2005-02-07 14:27:36
ah, the ole meta-game versus game discussion
had the same thing in my magic the gathering days.
My decks always had some kind of theme, so'I'd always get completly slaughtered by meta-gamers with red speed decks
or white-blue uber-combo decks.

I tried making my beloved Armenian into a unique wrestlers that made sence in a game setting ... buying moves like "Bite"
thing is, you tend to get slaughtered by the meta-gamers who buy all the subs and such.
So, now I try to do both, still keep the Beast beastly but not throw away my chances of winning matches.
Hence my second finisher, it's a sub, which makes meta-game sence but the description makes game sence. Admit it, would you like to get a radioactive rat infested beard rubbed in your face?
I find that, no, VOW hasn't become boring (yet)
eventually, every game becomes boring and VOW stands the test quite well.

yes, it might be good if the subs get toned down some
yes, the staff isn't that much of a success (btw, wrestlers don't have staff??? what about jimmy heart or Mr Fuji or the 3 other horsemen when the fourth is in the ring ... wrestlers do have staff, they may not walk about with stickers saying MATCH COACH LEVEL 2 on their heads, but they do exist)
and I'd love to see tag tournaments

but all in all, VOW is pretty damn good
Post by: Jaysen Chambers(46756)
2005-02-07 14:56:10
beggar.. its Jimmy Hart.. not heart.. junior, furthermore... those aren't considered staff.. but rather managers who are for heel type characters, distract the referee to enable underhanded tactics.. thats not a physical trainer and/or match coach, nor a doctor. So next time, think through what your saying before you say it.
Post by: beggar(46408)
2005-02-08 14:32:26
part of Mr Fuji and Bobby the Brains character was to train their wrestlers ... we hardly ever saw them actually DO any training with their guys (although I do remember the odd session with Mr Fuji training the Orient Express, Bobby the Brain training the Red Rooster and Jimmy Hart training the Warlord)
and at least theoretically, they were all at ringside to be match coaches.
Mr Fuji especially could often be seen giving instructions (and foreign object) to his guys.

docs? well, appart from Paul Bearers urn I don't really recal anything along those lines.
Unless you count Sensational Sherry "taking care" of the Macho king
Post by: the k(38357)
2005-02-08 17:37:30
so whats wrong with comparing match coach and trainer to jimmy hart, bobby heenan or lita doing a run in? or comparing match coach and trainer to brass knucks hidden in your tights?

its the same thing. using staff gives you an edge over someone who doesnt.

and yeah theres too many pins and subs going on.
Post by: Doug the Designer(55)
2005-02-08 22:32:03
A few points, if I may.

1) Player suggestions for reduced subs and pins have not been implemented because up until now, only 50% of the players were for them. You can't make changes to the game when 1/2 are against them. (I will start a separate thread on this).

2) Changes made to "fix" problems 90% of the time wind up making more problems that need to be fixed.

3) There is no such thing as the perfect game. That said, we need to settle on some acceptable level of flaw.

4) Even perfect games become boring if you play them all the time.

5) Peter now has a full-time job. Gross changes to the game are simply not possible anymore, since it takes Peter about 2 hours a day just to maintain the site (on top of his 11-hour a day job).

6) Besides #5, there are other games besides VOW with players demanding changes.

7) Players have short memories. (Almost every change implemented in the game was asked for by the players, so Peter is not "thick-headed")

8) Calling Peter names won't make him want to develop VOW.

9) Players cloud their own issues by asking for too much too fast. If you settled on one change and insisted on it, changes would happen. Making a laundry list of suggested changes just dilutes your arguments and loses the developer's attention.

10) I think a lot of the problem stems from players who took out long-term subscriptions and now are bored with the game, and are now demanding changes for the purpose of re-igniting their excitement and amusement. Taking into account point #4 and the fact that I feel that 75% of all player-proposed changes stem from this motivation (I am a player in other non-PLIT games, and 75% or more of my suggestions are motivated by this), the designers need to discern wants from needs over a period of time to see what changes are actually needed. Sometimes players need to be ignored to discern the seriousness of their desires. If the players are suggesting changes to something that isn't obviously broken, the only real way to see if it is a valid change is to see how often it is demanded and with what level of emphasis.

11) Experience tells me that most players will take offense to this bluntness and not use it constructively to advance their desires. I am prepared for your flames, but don't expect me to respond to them.

See my thread on subs and pins if you want to be constructive.
Post by: Crosson(37742)
2005-02-09 00:05:02
actually Doug, I find your post the best of any in this thread. Well thought out, organized, used correct English...

only issue i had was you said a few issues and listed eleven :)
Post by: gatcholio(28366)
2005-02-09 01:54:51
Peter added an idea of mine, so saying he doesn't implement player changes is 'thick headed' on your part. Thinking that just because you want something, it is the best way and everyone should see it your way.
Post by: Mad Bear(46310)
2005-02-09 03:23:50
My first wrestler was a total failure up to high SPWA.

I wanted him to be a dirty fighter and baught moves like Hair Pull, Bite, Slap, Eye Poke, Choke, Rope Choke and other dirty moves, but got owned by people with submission and power moves.

There really was no move difficulty as people with the submission/high damage moves would land more then my pathetic Hair Pull, Bite or Slap.

So I restarted and baught all the high damage moves mixed in with submission moves like I was told by high level players that are no longer here and do well.

Trying to be unique in VOW can kill a wrestler fast.
Post by: Stainless Danny Steel(28015)
2005-02-09 10:38:55
Ok, I read through all that and SDS thinks he has a solution, i think this has been talked about before but why not get it started up again, the idea of a Face and Heel System, My ideas on it:

Characters Choose if they want to be a face/Heel and then say you have a match, if the Face/Heel hits like 7 moves in a row, then he pulls out a big face/heel move (say for 15 damage or something), then if the Face/Heel hits 15moves in a row, he would do another Face/Heel move, Because if you think about it, it might add more depth to match readings. Please dont say you might as well just buy a special because this is totally different, you cant just randomly hit one of these, you have to earn it before hitting it, Also the idea would get people to be more unique in the way they would buy Lower damage moves as they are easier to do and would appear more...But thats just my idea of the Face and Heel System!

Cheers
SDS
Post by: Stainless Danny Steel(28015)
2005-02-09 10:43:40
p.s. LK - I like the idea of different stylesget additional moves, Every style has a base set of buyable moves but certain styles will have more moves for that style, that would make retirement even better, because you would be able to go through vow with different moves, Greatness!
SDS
Post by: beggar(46408)
2005-02-09 14:23:20
a "move tree" would also promote uniqueness. (cfr the tech tree from the Civ games)

fe, you can only buy Thrust Kick when you already own Stomp and Drop Kick.

by spreading pin/sub moves throughout the tree, you can quite effectively stop people for buyin JUST those move

drawbacks are:
1: it's massively complex to make a good move tree
2: it's a major rework to add it to the system
3: everyone is gonna bitch non stop about this or that combintion of moves that you need to buy another move

but hey, I'm still enjoying myself here
so no need to change much of anything on my behalf
Post by: Version 1(26732)
2005-02-09 18:42:48
When you start, you should have to have a choice of your moves, eg:
What do you choose?
Stomp or Punch?

And so forth...
The reason why VOW is boring is because of lack of interactivity and creativness. You should be able to make your own moves, like specials, but not that strong
Post by: Harpsichord(53663)
2005-02-09 23:16:32
VOW isn't boring; most of you have just got as far as you can go. Not EVERYONE Buys the sub moves etc; just the top players seem to have done so.

A move tree is far too complx; only thing I can see changing is perhaps the sub system being revamped to the point where you had to train your submissions differently to other stats?

As for specials; the spear, chokeslam etc are popular moves; not everyone's an Indy fan.



Post by: ocelot(76)
2005-02-10 04:40:44
Ive read your reviews and will discuss the major points





special moves: dont blame anyone for choosing a chokeslam for their special, i mean its still creative because they make there own move from it.. face it you dont want to buy a 30000+ special if it only does about 10 damage...





Moveset/fighting flavor: this is the a major problem, i see airalist buying piledrivers and stiffnecks buying a corkscrew moonsault.. one of the most over looked thing is that SNS and PG's have dropkick in their starting move set...i think what really makes people buy all these moves is it is a requirement that you buy ALL the moves so you might as well buy the good ones first.. Peter has messed up the whole game with this... i mean think of an arialist doing a gorrila press or a pg doing a superplex.... it just comes to show how much Peter actually cares for this game *note I will never become a vow legend and dont want to because i will never buy ALL the moves ex:crucifix powerbomb...



Staff: I dont have anything against it except for the match and physical trainer.... i think it would be best if peter eliminated the staff and just added the protection of doctor lvl2 automatically



submissions: well i agree that the subs are getting too much power but i have seen wrestlers in RL that will get pummeled and then come back with a big sharpshooter and win it...i think peter made a mistake by making subs have a fixed sub percentage... i think it should be how much damage the sub does increases the chances of making the person tap...that way there is no way for a 1 damage sleeper hold ruining my day



move tree: you will find it very hard if you do that



end note: I think all of you are too hard on Peter considering he knows nothing about wrestling but i think peter is not holding his end of the deal...










Oh yeah and that vow 3000 thing is so stupid.... i mean who would do that? this is a pro wrestling text game not no futuristic blasting game

if you want that go to: {edited by Scorp}

other than that leave VOW for god sake!!
Post by: Fangblast(13923)
2005-02-10 07:26:36
It was a joke:)
At the time I was bored with VOW though but I'm not anymore.
Post by: The Legend Killer(21778)
2005-02-10 16:07:40
Another reason is that people won't accept fights, especially against techs. And I'm NOT going to slaughter my tech just to get 1exp a time.
Post by: Div(17156)
2005-02-11 12:56:07
Speaking of subs..

Gigaton Joe Effects
Win by submission +1
Money +212 $
Fame +6
Exp +5
Consciousness damage 60
Vital Life damage 7
Doctor Level 2

ChrisBenoit Effects
Lose by submission +1
Money +75 $
Fame +1
Exp +1
Consciousness damage 17
Vital Life damage 2
Doctor Level 2
Post by: Coneman(325)
2005-02-11 14:06:39
Coney Effects
Win by submission +1
Money +289 $
Fame +12
Exp +5
Injury -1 Strength
Injury -1 Aerial
Consciousness damage 101
Vital Life damage 11
Doctor Level 2

The Black Demon Effects
Lose by submission +1
Money +70 $
Fame +1
Exp +1
Consciousness damage 45
Vital Life damage 5
Doctor Level 2

Coney was within like 7 conciousness...before getting KO'd.

So if vow was going for realism coney would have been stagerring around the ring..totally stuffed.
Post by: kriegpaolo(47053)
2005-04-24 19:30:58
Hmm...



U guys really like singles do u. Not surprising, when I log in VOW and wait few minutes people (and those ppl have lots ap too) would challenge singles while I have over 400 ap to burn. And all voting links (maybe not all but 2-3 are not there) available. I would hate singles. Gives less money, u get injuries. I use docs lvl 1 in singles lately mainly coz of the lack of money I get. I just lost singles and got about 200 bucks for getting injuries.

Now onto the main point. No flames, but just things of useless stuff Peter added.

Stables. A really crap feature. What does it do you? Nothing. Unless someone can tell me an extra 'thing' you get by joining stable. I agree with the VOW's motto of 'good, clean, wrestling action'. It's not motto but anyways. So no interferences but there's still no whole point. I still don't want annoying interference feature added too.

Last Man Standing Match. What a goof! It's basically a singles for god's sakes! You have to get cons to 10 or less to win, meaning lots of injuries after u spent lots of ap.

Pin chance. 50%? It's done to me by this guy. I think Draconian or someone with dark name. He hit German Suplex and theregoes 1-2-3. Lots of injuries as I used docs lvl 1. And my cons wasnt THAT damaged. Also flukey roll ups are annoying. I don't mind with the sub chance, though I was really pissed off when my wrestler tapped out to Head Lock (not even specialized!). Moreover, that wrestler had less than 30 sub point. I felt cool with that though.



Okay. The staff part that EVERYBODY hates. This is what I think:

Staff was crap when I first play in VOW. I felt weird. Wrestling don't use doctors to the ring don't they. I start to think realistic, and had a thought. Backstage doctors fixes wrestler body problems and injuries. So in the match should've got injuries but then backstage a doctor fix the injury and therefore less injury. That's what I had in mind, but that'd be the same as 'R & R'. Yes, match coaches and physical trainers. Basically they tell you 'strategies' and easier way to connect your moves. In tournaments, you'd badly need a mentor to help you score a victory before the match. So staff is not so bad after all.

If u read the whole thing, then you'll get what Peter mean by Staff. Probably Staff was to increase greater chance to win but anyways that's a reasonable statement when you look at the pro wrestling point of view. Don't look at it in the virtual point of view. LOOK AT IT IN PRO WRESTLING POINT OF VIEW! Also, about Hardcore Matches...

I personally thinks it doesn't need to be in VOW. VOW is all about building your wrestler with stat and buy moves, which would then be used when entering tournaments. Weapons would be annoying, coz they'd do lots damage. What? Three chair shot for a victory?? What moves would be executed in a Hardcore Match??! Some people can create special moves and pretend they're weapons or something (naming it 'Chair Shot', etc.). People whines so much about this. If you want some taste of Hardcore action in VOW, then get a 'Toss out of the Ring'. Play cage matches. When you do that move, it'd say that victim got tossed over the ropes and slammed right to the cage. No extra damage though.

VOW is a very good game, though the luck factor is a bit high.
Post by: Limerick(56750)
2005-04-25 02:20:23
I'm sick of hearing people complain about VOW. I've been playing this game about 6 months, and barely a week goes by when the legends/veterans are mouthing off about how VOW sucks because everyone buys the same moves, subs/pins too high, etc.

What I've come to realise from playing this game and other online games, is that the people who are on longer ALWAYS end up bitching. It doesn't matter if they win everything or lose everything, there is always some 'veteran' or 'hardcore' player crying and complaining about something. Then they go off and sulk for a couple of weeks/days/hours, post in the forums that they're 'never coming back', before coming back and starting it all over again a short while later.

What I'm trying to say is, shut up. No-one cares. There is always someone complaining over something because they got staffed by a n00b. Or because they lost a match after losing maybe 1 conc. point. Get over it. Like Mistah Speddles says, people lose in VOW. You will always lose at some stage. No game is perfect, and if it was perfect, it would probably still suck. So stop moaning about 'why VOW got boring' or 'why I hate VOW' or 'why VOW is unfair'. If you're sick of it, stop complaining, and do something about it: i.e. quit for good and don't come back. Stop wasting your keyboards complaining about stuff that has always been in the game and hasn't changed, especially you 'legends' who have been playing the game since it was created. No-one cares.
Post by: insane clown(11577)
2005-04-25 03:07:43
thanks for reminding me, why i hate you (edit)(hey couldnt u have waited until he saw what i called him before editing it) lime*ick
Post by: FloriZeus(7923)
2005-04-25 05:46:32
knegpaola, you seem to be a bit confused;

LMS is some kind of single? for all I know, it's a feature for the hard-core cagers;

you get less money in singles indeed, but you can get xp for fewer ap; and you get injured way less often than ladders, cages and LMS's (wouldn't now about tables since I've never done one :))


besides the only way to control the staff you have is to do it in matches; or work with permanent or long-term contracts; since if I want I do my match without staff, after the match put on my doctor and go heal my injuries?

that makes no sense does it? (in this case I will pay more for a dropping in the healing cost; huh???)
Post by: Limerick(56750)
2005-04-25 20:50:31
Ah get lost and whinge about unfair mods you clown...whats the matter with you? have I hit the nail on the head, that you just complain for the sake of complaining?
Post by: insane clown(11577)
2005-04-26 04:14:58
lol why do people keep deleting my threads :( i didnt say anything offencive
Post by: Limerick(56750)
2005-04-27 17:42:19
by the way, you spell offensive O-F-F-E-N-S-I-V-E not o-f-f-e-n-c-i-v-e...moron
Post by: insane clown(11577)
2005-04-27 18:28:39
well really, i dont actually give a crap
Post by: mistahspeddles(20309)
2005-04-28 05:50:30
The above post states KOVOW is constipated.
Post by: Nasumat(27790)
2005-04-28 11:33:30
"HA!!!!!!!!!!!!"

p.s. haha
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