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Forum: VOW General
Thread: Snipers opinion as to VOW's crash
Post by: The Sniper(27754)
2009-01-17 17:03:53
If anyone is wondering what brought this about it was mainly seeing that Denz has left and my own fury at the game which keeps causing me to pack it in for huge periods of time

I've been back maybe 10 minutes once again but things seem to be long gone from the way they once were. If I'm honest the game seems on its last legs. I'm not even sure there are any of the hardcore demographic are still about to even read or respond to this.

I've been playing from the early days of VOW2, and had played consistently until the Legends system was into full swing. I've constructed my own theory as to why I got fed up with the game and why I reckon others have got bored too.

Alot of people might blame the lack of improvement as to the reason VOW has crashed, others might blame a specific feature. My answer is to say the game has gone through alot of improvement. Anyone who remembers VOW back when it was still fun will know what it used to be. It was simple and uncomplex, yet it was still a laugh. Further more no matter how repetative it got it was still fun to log in and have a few make believe scraps with people make believe foes. No the improvements to VOW aren't to blame for its fall. There has been a fair amount of innovation with the staff choices, tag team/rumble content, and extra match types. The starting buff was also added as well making it easier for new players to start, yes it gave jerks an easy buy into the game but proper players found it easier to upgrade.

I have already said a long time ago what I thought was destroying VOW and I stand by it today. If I was to point a finger at a particular change I would say its the match types, but that was merely the tool of its destruction. The killer of VOW was majority of people stopped playing it for fun and started playing to win. Back when I started it was not uncommon for people to gain luck wins over people in singles, and even rarely a few in ladders and cages. However this wasn't a problem back then as people who wanted cage matches only all the time rarely got matches as it was seen as the PG or SN match of choice. And ladders were for Aerialists. This meant most matches fought were Singles. The advantage of this was people could challenge someone better than them and reap the rewards without a massive chance of being burnt to a crisp. Made more effective when the staff system was put in place, doctors kept peoples injuries down so they wouldn't be too set back when they lost.

So what do I blame? I blame the players who started taking VOW too seriously. I blame the people who set out to make sure they would inflict the most amount of damage on people they could to insure their victory in high stakes matches like LMS. This wouldn't have been a problem except for the fact that these people ONLY fought these types of matches, and almost always only against people who are lower level than themselves. That meant the general all rounder player was getting shafted in these high cost matches. Lets face it noone likes to lose, and the fact that these matches almost always caused you to make a loss of money ASWELL drove these players out of the risky matches of the game.

Unfortunately others would see this tactic and rightly see it as an easy passage to success, so more and more people began doing it. Slowly it became really hard for the all rounders to even get a match. I myself could only spend all my Ap fighting these damage masters and was running out inside 3 matches because I was burning my Ap out healing my injuries. A while back the most feared classes were tech and trad because of the counter and increased pin chances. Now they are PG and SN because people only fight high damage matches.

My point is losing a single to a luck pin or submission is annoying but it didn't do any harm to the loser. Likewise a high ranking player beating the lower player only rarely cuased them significant injury to the point the player made a loss. This meant that people were taking more gambles on their luck, and more matches were being fought. It gave people a reason to donate because they could get more Ap and actually be able to use it!

I raised this point a while ago and there were a band of players who wanted to try and defend the LMS Ganker tactic. So yes I concede, it is a good tactic. All the cost of using it is it killed the community. Now dont try and defend it, dont try and blame it on Peter or some unimportant factor. You my friend, YOU killed VOW. Anyone who remembers back to that post and put forward his 2 cents against it, always remember that way back when I said the game is no longer fun because of these LMS Bashers, Sniper chuffing called it.

I would like to end on a positive, but perhaps the most positive thing I can say is that some of my friends used this tactic... but they were always crap to fight against as well. If you yourself use this tactic, hang your head in shame, and thanks for wrecking a classic game.

By Sniper

aka Ben "really wanted this game to keep going but has lost his faith in the people who play it" Talkowski
Post by: HHH008(218073)
2009-01-18 03:30:13
Yes!! I killed VOW ;) I'm actually happy. :)
Post by: janos(269166)
2009-01-18 11:26:37
yeah yeah! people hate to lose... so deal with it.
Post by: legendary wolf(38655)
2009-01-18 11:30:24
I blame the fact i can't run my mouth off at everyone and everything without recieving the banhammer.

Rules need to be relaxed.

I would write a big post but then people wouldn't read it like i didn't with Snipers. (only kidding i did really :P)
Post by: The Sniper(27754)
2009-01-18 12:07:48
Believe it or not I actually started quite calm when I started writing this, I just got more and more riled up as I wrote it, hence the nastyness of the post. BUt its point still remains the same, just take out the bile and you will be left with what I mean ^^
Post by: lw09(314821)
2009-01-18 12:40:08
Sequel to your 'Why VOW went boring' Thread? :\

Post by: HHH008(218073)
2009-01-19 03:44:35
Post by: legendary wolf(38655)
2009-01-19 17:45:45
I don't mean to be pushy pushy,
i'm just in it for the...

what were we talking about again?

Oh yeah VOWs dead? hasn't it been dead for like the past year? :p

The only person who can actually revive it doesn't even seem to care, so he aint getting no more of my money (thus me not playing at the moment because i am not redonating)

I'm not suggesting everyone stops donating, that's your choice, i just don't want to.

Post by: denver(213914)
2009-01-19 19:43:34
Oh lawdy lawd I gone on n killed VOW :o
Post by: legendary wolf(38655)
2009-01-19 21:57:18
i saw no apology there, try again! ^.^
Post by: The Legend Killer(21778)
2009-01-21 14:23:38
I think there is also a degree of laziness setting into those who still play. Every day I see people complaining that they can't get matches. Here, I see a massive amount of hyprocracy with the senior players. They preach to the new players to use the player list, so why can't they do the same? Do you fear something if you leave a challenge up overnight? Is there some random force that automatically makes you lose if you're not sat at a computer when your challenge goes through?

I think we're now also at the stage where players are going through the styles and there isn't really much left to explore. When VOW was in its prime, there was a lot of exploration left. There was the joke that the server would crash when someone retired all the styles. Obviously that isn't true since there are now 3 or 4 people (me included) who have accomplished this feat. What's left after that?

Look at the retention after retirement, around 230 legends (I'd guess 130-150 different players), but how many single legends became double legends or triple legends? The answer you can probably count on one or two hands. You had those who tried to hold out as long as possible (BA, Rikishi, etc), but in the end, people won't fight them unless they're good friends or just plain desperate. I guess this is what the other Ben is trying to say when people just want to win.

Although I doubt the LMS gankers are purely to blame. There are others who are just as selective. Singles only... tags only... people over 500 fame only. These people are to blame as much for the downfall as the LMS gankers. But on the other hand, can you blame them? The game is something that rewards victory (fame/money), so why not build a wrestler to try and maximize winning potential.
Post by: legendary wolf(38655)
2009-01-22 16:21:53
Post by: HHH008(218073)
2009-01-22 20:03:58
Why Would I Accept Singles anyways? Rather Fight Mad Max 1000x times then do one single. With his uber 10000x Legend Bonus. That's a fact.

Gigaton Joe(14577) Wins: 25
Theanimal(141272) Wins: 0

Look at this FAIL?! LOOK!!!!!
Post by: legendary wolf(38655)
2009-01-23 14:16:00
Aiden(1337) Wins: 9001
Theanimal(141272) Wins: 0
Post by: The Sniper(27754)
2009-01-23 20:20:21
A fair enough point LK, I dont think there is anything that cause me to disagree. I think what bugs me is whenever I fought a match I tried to fight people around my own level, and I would always advise lower players to do the same when they challenged me. Persistent challenges meant a quick squash match but generally I begrudge giving other players injuries as much as I begrudge getting injuries myself.

My overall point is that I would like to think I have a fair amount of honour in who I fight and in what match. People around my own level I would fight in any competition due to the even chances of winning. Low players I only ever fight if they insisted on sending me matches, and high players I might give a single to, a ladder at a push simply for the sake of self preservation.

My definition of LMS ganking is given to those people who will ONLY ever fight people of lower experience than themselves and mostly only challenge people who are a good 300-400 exp below them.

I can't criticise anyone for trying to win, its the players who fight very cowradly and have no regard for the progression of other peoples wrestlers that gets on my nerves.

LK - You have been officially rebuked by The Sniper ^^
Post by: HHH008(218073)
2009-01-24 16:24:30
Nice Moobs Aiden
Post by: legendary wolf(38655)
2009-01-24 21:06:28
lmao, you haz moobs Warren.
Post by: Bulldog Butcher(330287)
2009-01-25 01:24:50
Well... I'm bored so I will give my very short, unnecessary opinion to this.

VOW lost a lot of it's loyal players due to different reasons, and then they are usually replaced by players who never get passed 250 exp or players who get to about 400 exp and detach over and over, fighting less and less whimsical matches each time. Thus, more of the loyal players get bored not being able to get consistent matches and take extended breaks from the game.

*Side Note: Wazza haz azn moobz
Post by: Dyna Mike Duncan(127082)
2009-01-26 10:02:04
OK... my say on this :)

There is no SINGLE reason why VOW is nowhere near as active or as fun as it used to be, more a combination of numerous reasons.

People are quick to complain about the lack of updates ... yet whenever updates are brought in (Staff, different match types, ageing factor, payout reduction for 1 v 1 tags, LAW seclusion etc) you still get some players who aren't happy about it ... so basically, you can't please all of the people all of the time.

Would more in-game additions be welcome ... as far as I'm concerned, yes they would, particularly around Tags and Rumbles. But in essence, the game play is no different now than it has been since I joined VOW, so I'm not going to skulk off and not play any more just because there's no changes being made.

The way the game is being played by some players also doesn't seem to have changed very much either. There have always been the 'gankers' in the game, and there always will be. If you don't like the fact they're doing it, don't fight them .. the choice is yours at the end of the day. I honestly don't understand these players who can't get matches - I've never had that problem to such an extent that it causes me to moan about it! Perhaps the players who claim they can't get matches should look at the way THEY are playing the game instead of blaming the game and other players for it.

The other major complaint generally seems to be about the Chat/Behaviour rules and the way they are enforced by the Mods - and the majority of people complaining about this do appear to be the people who have broken these rules (frequently in some cases) ... were the rules interpreted/enforced differently in the past? Were players allowed to get away with more in the past?

Quite possibly ... but then again, this caused issues of its own when they did, and was blamed for putting lots of new players off the game. Where do you draw the line?

End of the day ... if people are going to complain about VOW and try and pinpoint why it is in decline, then there is no ONE reason for it.

Can we all do more to help attract/welcome new players to the game? Can we all do more to ensure that VOW's fortunes turn round? Probably .. YES
Post by: legendary wolf(38655)
2009-01-27 15:47:27
Then you couldnt make things new
Just by saying I love you
Post by: The Cannibal(396382)
2009-01-28 21:05:21
Dear All,

My VOW name is the Cannibal. I was number 6266 or something of the sort and I played before the the most major change in this games history occured. Sniper is part right in his prognosis though I say he places the change in attitude far later than it actually occured. There have always been people who only engaged in certain matchtypes and shunned singles. Black Demon only used to do cages if I remember and he was by no means the only one who had a specialty. Sniper is trying to make sense of the downfall of this game in a way that makes his tenure some sort of golden age. As I have learned from my periodic visits to VOW, to sniper it has always been about Sniper, which made it all the more fun to mess with him, and even all the more fun to read this post.

The great change I speak of was the placement of real money as the greatest factor in the success of a wrestler. Before the ability to buy AP it was known that the game had little to do with skill and all to do with chosing the right opponents but such a fact was ignored as the users (progressing at a much slower pace) made the game fun through series and contests as well as stables and such. Improvements came every so often. Once money was added in however for the most part the improvements stopped (Tag Teams, Match Types being exceptions that come to mind and Tag Teams were concurent with the institution of buying AP if I remember). As DMD suggested there is always a critic and if that critic is sinking stupid amounts of money into the game his or her opinion means much more. No more improvements. VOW was always a great start, After a few minor adjustments however it was treated as if it was a finished product.

Now you all may be saying that the game lasted long after money was introduced as the main force by which one advanced in VOW. True enough. The small improvements tied some over for a while, while the rest of you got along off the community or with the prospect of becoming a LEGEND OF VOW. Legends of Vow used to mean something, now that there are 233 of them it really means nothing. All it shows is who had the patience and/or the money to advance that far. Instead of being one in a handful of victors, current legends are just part of a crowd, one that dosnt matter much any more. The individual Match, degraded by massive amounts of AP being bought, no longer means much to the veterens, so they leave. New people have nothing to strive for, other than beating a second grade online sports simulater and blowing hundreds of dollars in the process. In the meantime Peter, a true buisnessman, has done well for himself and is content to watch this game die. I Foresaw this a long time ago (3-5 years ago I think) and I whenever I came back and predicted this very occurence you all told me to shut up and banned me from chat. Well here it is. Hope you all enjoyed it while it lasted. Im sure a new Wrestling simulator will pop up and Ill see you all there.


The Cannibal (Stiff Neck)
Jonny SHOOOOOOOWBIZ (Aerielist)
Technical Chocolate (Technical)
The Flying Refrigerator (Power Grapple)
Post by: legendary wolf(38655)
2009-01-29 18:23:23
Nice sneaking in your old ID so you can get some e-respect.
Post by: HHH008(218073)
2009-01-29 21:25:06
lol Aids
Post by: The Cannibal(396382)
2009-01-30 10:11:35
wasnt much of a sneak when i said it like 3 times.

Some of us get E-respect through using our old names, some of us do it by trying to be funny, seems like you got the second one down pat.
Post by: legendary wolf(38655)
2009-01-30 13:26:43
Trying to be funny?

I was being serious, the fact that Warren laughed was just because he agreed with me.

Plus before you start complaining about me garnering e-respect, you need to ask people around here. Noone respects little ole me. ;)

I'm just too damn sexy for them.

Also: Pat? srsly!
Post by: Backyard Brawler(247809)
2009-02-26 14:13:31
Some people are heartless idiots who's only goal is to make themselves feel better because they won on a game on the internet. Eventually for this game to be any fun you have to adapt to what everyone else is doing and if you don't have the money to waste to get AP, that means doing lms matches. Singles payouts are at average $170 for wins and $70 for losses with doctors. If you lose by knockout in a singles match, you have injuries, and the ap to r&r is more than the the money you made.

You lose an lms, you're still making money.

Unless staff is eliminated, or the payouts are changed in someway or sort, no one is going to go back to fighting a lot of singles matches because if you do, you're going to be way behind the curve on the rest of vow.

Bashing in LMS is unfortunate and shouldn't happen, but the most bashing I see, besides ult warrior sending out lms to spwa as soon as they promote, is using singles matches because its supposedly going to cause less injuries and end a match sooner.

Once people found out which moves do the most damage, thats the moves they all pick, so going into singles against someone with all damage moves = injuries galore unless you can luck out and get a quick pin or sub in.

I can understand thinking that the game getting more competitive can make the game less fun for some, but if you like the game, you have to adapt to make sure that you're somewhat competitive so its still fun for you to play.

Post by: Captain Stupendous(38517)
2009-02-27 03:04:19
"...no one is going to go back to fighting a lot of singles matches because if you do, you're going to be way behind the curve on the rest of vow."

Having built 5 consecutive singles wrestlers, I must disagree with the statement above. If you build your wrestler properly and engage in the occasional non-singles match to augment your income, it is possible to build a very dominant singles specialist.

Everything else, I agree with.
Post by: insane clown(11577)
2009-02-28 07:38:56
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