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Forum: VOW General
Thread: Should Newbies (and Noobs) be given Even more protection?
Post by: Dyna Mike Duncan(127082)
2008-02-11 07:00:41
When I first joined VOW, there was no Wiki Based Manual, no players (that I was aware of anyway) had any hints + tips on their profiles and the only written help/instructions was on the External Manual (which was patchy at best).

However, with the odd exception, the experienced players were more than willing to point out to new players where they were going wrong and offer advice - I would never have got as far in the game without the help of players like Ray, James, Rikishi + Mad Dawg to name but a few.

Since the inception of the Wiki Based Manual, which I am by no means knocking here, it seems that the experienced players stock reply to new players when they ask questions is 'Go look at the Wiki' and very few seem willing to offer basic advice. I'd go as far to say that the ridicule the new players recieve in chat these days is a hell of a lot worse now than it has ever been and the newbs + noobs alike fall victim to the experienced players in LAW sending them LMS match after LMS match just to earn themselves easy money.

I know I've been as guilty of this as others, but isn't it time for a change? How many players complain that they can't get matches in higher leagues - yet as soon as they retire or create a new LAW wrestler, all they do is kill off new players by bashing them? How many times do we see players complaining about the 'type of person' VOW is attracting these days, yet instead of encouraging the 'noobs' to learn the game and change their ways, we insult them and laugh at them when they get killed off?

OK, nobody outside of LAW can challenge LAW's, LAW's can't create Tag Teams - but I think we need to go further than that.

Suggestions raised so far include:

-Bring in fines or reduce payments for LAW wrestlers earning less than 3XP for a win
-Make it impossible for high experience LAW's to challenge new players (fixed XP limits in LAW so that you can only challenge people of a maximum 20XP below you for example)
-All new LAW's are automatically directed to a Hints + Tips page on sign-up. Before they can do anything else, these tips have to be read and an 'I Accept' button pressed.

Without new players coming through, nothing is going to change!
Post by: yar(35506)
2008-02-11 11:04:57
Seems to me the issue is what to do to keep new players in the game and not push them out. Bashing is one problem, mods being too strict with new players is another, lack of training tools for new players, and probably a few more that I have'nt listed.

I feel the vets and Legends need to come together in agreement to lead by example, offer advice to new players, real advice, not read the manual!

Mods have a hard job i know, but people need to be treated as individuals, you don't correct a baby the same way you do a teenager, I feel they should be given a couple of warnings.

Training tools, i think VOW needs some official trainers that will be on to help new players. When they 1st join the screen they should see is basic rules and playing information that they have to read and accept.

But most importantly I feel that new people needs to be welcomed into the VOW community with open and friendly arms, instead of the clickish atmosphere that exist here currently. make them want to be here and make friends. it isn't the game play that keeps most longtime players active in VOW, it is the social interaction and friends that they have made that keeps them here.

Maybe try to include new players in chat more, instead of ignoring them or making them feel they have'nt earned the right to be in chat yet.

offer advice when you see a player is struggling.

Don't label them noobs, they have a character name, lets use it. When you start labeling people you stop respecting them, and they feel the disrespect and it causes a lot of problems.

What could be the out come? I have trained a lot of people who have been successful in VOW. Look at Will rumble, (like him or not) when he 1st joined he is what most of you would have called a noob, he asked about 100 questions a day and drove me nuts but I helped him anyway, and look at what he has become, a dominant force in VOW to be reckoned with and has been quite successful, more than alot of others, besides that we have become close friends and talk on and off the computer. So you never know what a little time spent with new players can do for the game and for yourself.

The betterment of VOW society
Post by: Dyna Mike Duncan(127082)
2008-02-11 11:23:38
All good ideas - as long as the Training rules/screen/tips is the first thing that new players see when they start out.

This debate doesn't really take account of the new players' mentality - if they aren't willing to take or follow advice, then there is still going to be a proportion of new signups who are going to annoy the hell out of existing players and act like the proverbial 'noobs' - but if only a small proportion of the Legends/Vets/Experienced Players would ACTIVELY try to help, both in terms of game tactics and chat behaviour, then things can only improve.
Post by: yar(35506)
2008-02-11 11:26:39
I totaly agree John. good thread:)
Post by: legendary wolf(38655)
2008-02-11 18:13:20
in answer to the title of this topic, yes. Because the nice nurse lady said so who came into school once.
Post by: Dyna Mike Duncan(127082)
2008-02-11 18:58:07
Sniper's suggestion copied from another thread :)

While out of Ap I decided to fish around and see if I can find any other online wrestling games, since VOW was the only one I've ever known. I won't post it here because I doubt peter wants me to spread information about his competition :P

Anyway, the game had a set of tutorials a player could go through to get used to the game. If I'm honest I didn't find them to helpful, the game is really awkward and the tutorials don't really guide you at all. Anyway, the point is after you complete each tutorial section you would get the equivelant of an Ap award you could use to upgrade moves and such.

What I'm thinking is borrowing from this idea we could give them the choice to run the tutorial once they start the game (Any new player with sense would say yes). So give them 500 Ap to start, and take them through the basics of setting their staff, training their stats, fighting a match, and healing their Vital Life, explaining the effect of each and we went. Each section would award them an aditional 500 Ap points to get back to the normal 2500Ap we normally get.

People who genuinely wanted to play the game would pick to run the tutorial and get a grasp on how to play the game. The tutorial can close by saying anything else you want to know read the wiki manual of ask an online member about it. This way players aren't felt lost to start with and it encourages more players to stay. Also has the added benefit of us avoiding the noob questions we face on a daily basis :)

Only thing we need to consider wehn wiritng the tutorial is to not put opinions in. E.g. when it comes to specials, rather than saying "specialise one of your style specific moves" say something like "You can set a Special Move using any move in the game, pick a current one, or save up and wait for one you prefer". Any opinions on this? :)
Post by: Dyna Mike Duncan(127082)
2008-02-11 19:02:15
The other advantage of Sniper's suggestion is the flip side of the coin too.

The true noobs won't want to read through all the training guides, so will get less AP to start with. Therefore, will be around a lot shorter time :)

Not only will this mean chat + the game will benefit from the noobs not being around as much, but it will also mean there will be fewer noobs for the Gankers to bash in LAW.
Post by: The Sniper(27754)
2008-02-11 19:04:15
LoL well spotted, props to the DMD Man :)

Not really much to add, I just reckon it might make VOW a little more friendly for starting up players
Post by: The Sniper(27754)
2008-02-12 17:03:04
Again copied from another post. Figure this gives a little insight :)

Example of my ideal start would be this. Additional points are in curly brackets {}

Tutorial part 1: Training your stats (Title, obviously)
Objective: Raise an attribute, using your Ap {The objective}
Guide: {Each part that doesn't already activate a link can have a continue button or something so its easier to explain}
1.Click on the gym link on the left hand side to load the gym page.
2. As you can see you have 5 attributes to choose from, you should also be able to see your current Action Points and Money at the bottom, they should read 500 each. Click continue when you can see them.
3.Npw type a value into the white text box of the stat you want to change (this can be anything, but we recommend 50+). Now click your gym trainer for this stat and select "No". click continue to proceed.
4. The gym trainer set to no will not use any of money to train your attribute, but will not train it to its maximum. Once you are happy with your settings click "Train"
5. Congrats you have trained your {Stat} by {points #} points. you will find you now have an additional 250 Ap. {and maybe a complete button or something}

And lets face it, if you can't train your stats after that... your either forgeign (In which case your excused) or a nit :P
Post by: The Legend Killer(21778)
2008-02-13 08:31:10
The one big gripe I have with noobs, newbies and even some older players is that they always assume they're above the law for various reasons.

You see an SPWA coming in, asking for LAW matches but will then throw the excuse out that there are no SPWA online and he won't fight PWO.

I see suspended players making new accounts because they're too lazy to e-mail the mods. Heck, there's even a "guide" on how to e-mail the mods in the forums. How far do we want to hold peoples' hands here.

When you join, you are encouraged to read the Conduct and Privacy. This is basically the Highway Code for PLIT. If you're driving and you get caught speeding, saying that you're a new player won't get you off a fine. Heck, new drivers are punished further than experienced drivers.

To be honest, there is enough in this site to stop players from getting chat banned, from being bashed, etc. For those that don't have the common sense to look around, and use a little self-discovery, then I'm sorry, but they get everything they deserve.
Post by: Dyna Mike Duncan(127082)
2008-02-13 09:09:26
OK - no argument that those players who break the rules regarding Chat, multi-accounting, bashing LAW's (once outside LAW) etc deserve everything they get.

However, the new drivers/Highway Code analogy highlights some of the proposals being put forward.

The Highway Code is an integral and compulsory part of new drivers passing their Driving TEST, is an aid to safer driving and essential reading for all new drivers wanting to get their full licence and be able them to drive legally.

Whereas the Wiki Based Manual, the help topics on the Forum etc. are NOT compulsory reading!

Learner drivers are forced to take lessons off experienced drivers/driving instructors before they are able to take a driving test and earn their full license.

New VOW players have no such lessons or compulsory instruction on how to play the game.

New drivers who have not taken the necessary instruction, passed the relevant tests etc and who still insist on driving are a danger to themselves and to everybody else on the road.

New VOW players who don't take advice, read the WIKI etc. are a danger to VOW as a whole - clogging chat with their abuse, becoming easy targets for the ever increasing epedemic of bashers in LAW and therefore putting genuine players off playing the game.

So, while new drivers are forced to take driving tuition, shouldn't new accounts be forced to take VOW tuition too?
Post by: yar(35506)
2008-02-13 09:15:23
That is really a sad attitude to have LK, and one that doesn't promote the game in a good way. A little lenacy and understanding would go along way.

And why would anyone want to email the mods to get their chat back or unbanned, when it takes so long to get their privileges restored?

If you ask me most of the mods have the wrong attitude and out look on what their job is, it is not to punish, but to encourage everyone to follow the rules so everyones game play is enjoyable. bans and chat bans should be the last resort, and yes they are needed at times.

And I dont want to hear that mods have a real life too, maybe the mods should have thought about that before accepting the position, and if their real life gets in the way of being a mod, then they should resign and let someone who has time to mod correctly take their position.

VOW needs to become a friendlier place and the mods should lead the way in my humble opinion.

For along time I have felt the mod system has been broken and hasn't been good for the game, I do know that mods are needed and support them as a whole, but with added power comes responsibility. And the mod system needs to be looked at and overhauled so it is an efficient and fair sytem for players and VOW.
Post by: The Legend Killer(21778)
2008-02-13 09:57:19
But since when do players appreciate what the mods do? They posted a set of updates and to be honest Ray, you were quick to say "oh, no great updates then", not "something being done, thank you mods". Players who constantly whine and bitch about the mods (to me) are those who are trying to say "I want to be a mod" without saying it. Plus when you discourage them, you make people not want to do their jobs. I've seen it in my line of work, a young kid gets told that he's rubbish (use a different term), and after that, he doesn't want to.

And now, the fact that mods can't have a life is being pulled up as an inappropriate excuse. Yes, I would love to see a rolling suspension system based on the number of chat bans under certain categories, but it's Peter and the mods you need to be setting these complaints to, not a public forum.

Maybe it is a sad attitude to have, but to be honest, it's an attitude which has seen me take up several roles in this game (helper, mod, stable leader) and a lot of the time, it's gone unappreicated by 99% of the community. I get bored of seeing new players come in, start breaking 5 chat rules and get banned for multi accounting. I've been here for 4 years next month and I've seen a lot of people come and go. I've seen a lot of complaints about the mods, about the updates and it just seems as though people are never going to be satisfied.

What do players want? We have to appreciate that Peter has a family to look after, he has to hold down a full time job which sees him travelling around Asia and Europe. I would love to sit Peter down behind a computer and get him to be inspired to spend a few weeks making one huge update. But then, would players become appreicative of it? Would players actually say thank you for this tag tournament update, or would there be petty complaints like "Joker and DMD are winning the tournament all the time, there's no competition"?

I could sit here on my day off and come up with buckets of ideas for the game, but without anyway of coding them, ideas are going to be nothing more than that.
Post by: Dyna Mike Duncan(127082)
2008-02-13 10:05:22
I don't want to see this topic sidetracked into another Mod/Player handbag fight.

I'm not going to comment on the relative merits of either side of this debate ON THIS TOPIC.

All I want to see is the game rules/tactics made more accessible to new players - and maybe if this happened, then the Rule Breakers would have NO EXCUSE WHATSOEVER for moaning about how strict (or not) the Mods are.
Post by: The Legend Killer(21778)
2008-02-13 12:50:13

Maybe we need a cross section of players (rule breakers prefered) and ask why they don't read the rules. Or ask a cross section of struggling players why they find the game hard?
Post by: Dyna Mike Duncan(127082)
2008-02-13 12:54:40
Post by: yar(35506)
2008-02-13 15:25:52
alright I wont go into the mod player effects on the game, they are apparent to anyone who plays the game, and it wasnt so much an attack on the mods as on the mod system.

I will say that this game is dying! And unless something changes it will only get worse. Are there even enough donators left to pay the cost of the server?

Bringing new blood to the game is important, but equally important is motivating the current players to donate, so there is a game for these players to even play.

I think there are alot of issues that need addressed.

And no LK, not all players will ever be satisfied, there will always be something to talk about lol

But sharing points of view about the game is a healthy release of frustration when done so in an appropriate way.

Post by: Dyna Mike Duncan(127082)
2008-02-13 15:57:03
This could act as 'proof' for both sides of this debatte, but here goes.

In the last 10 days, I've sent my hints/tips to about 100 new players (mainly noobs I've seen acting up in chat)

From those 100 messages I've had:

7 positive responses (thanks, that's great etc.)

13 negative responses (I won't go into details lol)

And about 80 didn't even acknowledge the fact I'd messaged them

So, roughly 7% changed their ways and have since created better wrestlers and are now more active (in a good way) both in the game and on chat.

The rest of them continued to kil their wrestlers off, detach, start again + do exactly the same things again - both with their wrestlers + in chat (until they lost it)

All of them thought they knew better or couldn't be bothered following a simple 10 point plan or reading the Wiki to help them improve and enjoy the game more.

So, 7 people changed - 'big deal' some may say. Hardly worth it for all the effort etc. etc. But 7 is better than nothing - and that's just from me trying to help. I know others are doing the same.

So, would things change if they had to go through a simple exercise/test before being able to start?

Well, I've tried to help a hundred and had a 7% success rate. If every new LAW wrestler created had to go through a test to enable them to play, this percentage would increase.

The really lazy noobs wouldn't be bothered going through it + would be put off by it for a start, and that would still leave those who think they know better for the bashers to prey on.
Post by: Craig(170136)
2008-02-13 16:08:26

Everyone is sounding like FBI agents, end of the day some people in life are a little incurable (like myself) so doesn’t matter how much people try to help, they aren’t going to listen which is fair enough in my opinion

Others are willing to learn the game, they ask for tips on staff, moves and any basically how to play the game

For the people unwilling to learn they are going around in circles within the game, dying – detaching – and starting again, if these people aren’t willing to ask for help or even read the wiki why take away others easy cash making?

End of the day vow is just a game based on cash making, more cash easier it is to retire fair enough? I think so!

Post by: The Sniper(27754)
2008-02-13 16:09:15
This is me nice calm and cool, so hopefully noone will interpret this as offensive... shouldn't do case it would take someone pretty warped to be offended by it but still :)

I reckon the problem we have nowadays is this. Even though to us there hasn't been a great lot of increase, when you think about it there have been alot of things that have been added to the game. When I joined there was alot less strategy to consider. Innovations like staff, LMS and tables matches, tag teams, different leagues, having 2500 Ap to start with have all made the game a little more strategic.

The extra Ap for example allows you tog et alot of things done very quickly. Fine if you know what your doing, if you don't, you'll get a heck of alot of destruction done to your character. The old exp start gave you time to think about and explore things while you were waiting for AP.

basically when I started the game was alot simpler, and much easier to get a hold one what to do. I started off and nearly botched the game up, my stats did get a ltitle trashed to begin with, but I was able to figure it out and save my character. I would imagine if I had 2500Ap to start with I would have still made it but, would have gotten in a bit more trouble and struggled more than I did.

This is why I think we should hafe a tutorial, whereas we all were gently eased into the aspects of the game, LAW's now have to learn alot of things really fast. The tutorial lets people get a grasp on waht the games all about before braving the world solo.

TBH I don't think anyone can really say its fair to disagree with that :)
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