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Forum: VOW General
Thread: LMS gankers?
Post by: The Sniper(27754)
2008-02-06 22:56:28
As some of you may have noticed, I have come back after probably about 6 months to a year off from the game. Enjoying it again, making myself known once more :)

One thing I might say is, since my return I have noticed there aare now a HELL of alot of players insisting on LMS only, or No Singles posted in their player pages. I was always more partial to singles and ladders myself, liked to fight the odd table or cage match. LMS for me was a match that I didn't like to play, it was a total gamble match where someone was guaranteed to get a heavy hospital bill. Something I never liked to see either me or my fellow wrestlers recieve.

At first I was each to their own and what not, but the more times I log in the more LMS matches I get sent, and the more people I see refusing to fight anything but. Not sure of the point I'm making, I usually accept LMS matches regardless of my distaste for them... but I feel the need to point out there are very few people who challenge people higher than themselves in these matches due to the potential injury.

Now I'm most certainly not saying LMS fighters are noob bashers... but it seems picking a fight with people in a high damage match where you have the edge is reminiscent of ganking found in games like World Of Warcraft, and in my opinion isn't really in the spirit of the game. I'm not accusing anyone of anything, nor forcing anyone to change their methods to success...

BUT, and its a big BUT, I would like to ask people think about the effects they are having on the game. Just 1 guys opinion, quite happy for people to post theirs :)

Sniper Out.
Post by: Craig(170136)
2008-02-07 07:44:43
LMS matches have taken over vow because of legends like LK, Mad Max, and Amazing H, they retire rejoin LAW and then walk through the league with a simple 140 Ė 2 record which gives them an edge straight away within spwa (as they have 50k in the bank).


Its nothing against them guys named above I just feel they have changed VOW with the way they play the game


I feel other people have noticed this and are basically copying the strategy, and just like a bad virus itís swept across vow

Post by: Dyna Mike Duncan(127082)
2008-02-07 08:49:36
I've no problem with people just doing LMS matches (or any one type of match for that matter) - it is just when they start complaining about not being able to get fights or calling people for refusing to fight them that it gets annoying.

And the fact that a current trend in LAW seems to be to try and get as MANY wins before being promoted as possible (as if this is something to be proud about!) is a terrible stain on the game at the moment.

The Noob-Bashing rule, although maybe not exactly being broken as it currently stands, is certainly being abused by a lot of players right now.
Post by: The Sniper(27754)
2008-02-07 09:09:10
And thats really my point, All the other types of matches in VoW are matches where even those at a severe disadavantage can still get an out and pull off the win. LMS is a match where the ONLY way to win is to damage your opponent out of the game. Its almost a guarantee winner for higher experiences

This hurts my character because I will accept matches from people that are quite high above me, going as high as 30/40%. In an LMS I would get smoked by these people. Before it didn't bother me, but now its getting really hard to find someone who wont do anything but, for lack of a better word, destroy your character.

As I say, I'm not pointing fingers, but it does seem to me at the minute there is a rather strong element of Ganking going on right now.
Post by: legendary wolf(38655)
2008-02-07 10:04:00
"Its almost a guarantee winner for higher experiences "

I made like 20k the other day fighting the same SSWO with my PWO :)

If you have the right moves experience matters nothing. LMS is the way to go because singles are a lottery and the rest of the matches' payouts are completely rubbish (including singles). The only match that is better than LMS is tag matches and they are too hard to come by. (although i retired after fighting 120 tags in the space of an hour xD)
Post by: The Sniper(27754)
2008-02-07 10:09:54
A fair point, think i might revise my statement to a lsightly less opinionated one :P

I guess I prefer a general purpose wrestler, with a variety of moves... I was never a big believer in buying the heavy damage ones and blasting my opponent to oblivion :)
Post by: Dyna Mike Duncan(127082)
2008-02-07 15:41:42
Having the right moves is fine - noob-bashing thru LAW to get them is a different matter.

It's a never-ending spiral of descent for the game ...

Players take advantage of the new players (noobs/newbs alike) to earn fame + money in LAW, buy the top moves, additional Spec's as they get to SPWA.

The new players get either disheartened and leave VOW for good or join the trend to bash thru LAW.

Other experienced players can easily spot those who've bashed thru LAW and refuse to fight them (especially in LMS/other non-singles).

The bashers complain they can't get matches and use chat to bemoan the fact that VOW is full of wimps and cowards these days!

Yet, who were the cowards in LAW? Refusing to fight anybody higher in XP than themselves (or even close in XP for that matter!)
Post by: The Legend Killer(21778)
2008-02-07 17:35:06
Yes, I'm in favour of a lot of LMS fights, but that's because I have legend bonuses and I like to take advantage of that.

Joe is a different kettle of fish. I'm trying to retire him in SSWO, so LMS is the obvious route.

To be honest, LMS fighters will hit a wall at some point. Whether it be no fights, stupidly high move prices or a lack of AP; LMS fighters will hit the wall at some point. I found it out with my guys, they get declines a lot in LMS because of their records, even against other LMS fighters.

But yeah, that's just my reason. I've played enough to get a bonus, so why not utilise it a little?
Post by: Dyna Mike Duncan(127082)
2008-02-07 19:36:23
Two different aspects of this debate really

1 - Players only wanting to do one specific match type. No problem with that (as I said earlier) - but got to expect players to decline, just as they should expect you to decline when they challenge you to other match types. Part + parcel of the game - you make your choices.

2 - Bending of the noob-bashing rule while a LAW (as the rule currently stands) to earn tons of cash etc. etc. Is it a good thing for the game or not?
Post by: legendary wolf(38655)
2008-02-07 20:06:31
the fact of the matter is, if some LAW asks for help i'll give it them, but if its an immensly stupid question they will receive an immensly stupid answer (see my spec for details of 'Noobdor') and if they don't ask for help and continue to die, why not help them die by sending them 3 nice little LMSs? :D
Post by: Dyna Mike Duncan(127082)
2008-02-07 21:32:02
Like Craig said in his post - people are now copying the strategy and it is fast becoming the norm. People think they now need to do this to be able to compete in SPWA + above.

At a time when VOW is allegedley struggling, this does nothing to help the situation
Post by: The Legend Killer(21778)
2008-02-08 07:31:40
But is it also a case of players becoming too reliant upon existing strategies and not wanting to risk having an attempt at another strategy. Basically LMS is just a money hoarder if you can build a character right.

It's the same with specialised moves. I look around and see PGs and SNs with Piledriver, Stall Suplex and Bear Hug appearing everywhere. There's no alternate train of thought, people are unwilling to change from the norm and in a way, it makes VOW seem very autonomous.
Post by: Dyna Mike Duncan(127082)
2008-02-08 09:30:49
That's exactly my point - so shouldn't something be done to force a stop to it?

I know LAW's get a lot of protection and there's already a lot of help available out there for them, if only they could be bothered looking/asking for it - but it all comes down to the old debate about how readily available + visible the help guides and rules are.

My suggestions would be:

All new wrestlers are automatically directed to a basic guide - explaining Experience, Doctors, How To Challenge someone, Chat Rules and instructions on avoiding the Bashers. Then, it's up to them whether they follow this guide or not and they become open targets for the rest of LAW if they decide they know best.

Or, give newbies even more protection in LAW. Stop the current bashers from challenging new/lesser exerienced players completely! Once you get past 50XP, you are only allowed to challenge people 10XP lower than you (and anybody higher), at 100XP this increases to 20XP, 150XP to 30XP + 200XP to 40XP. Nothing stopping the noobs frm challenging anybody higher than them though
Post by: yar(35506)
2008-02-09 12:00:44
Good idea john, or maybe each match you fight where you only get 1 or 2 exp for winning you get fined, tournys get no fines.

1 exp = 1000.00 fine

2 exp = 500.00 fine

3 exp = no fine

4 exp = no fine

5 exp = no fine
Post by: Dyna Mike Duncan(127082)
2008-02-09 12:55:08
That's a decent idea :)
Hit the bashers where it hurts most - in their wallet!
Post by: Me(316143)
2008-02-09 14:07:43
Or just remove the winnings from 1-2 xp matches altogether. I don't noob bash (4.3 win xp ratio) but those just seem like heavey fines.

If there's no money, theres no incentive.
Post by: yar(35506)
2008-02-09 14:54:13
The fines could be lowerered, but some people like to pad there record and make it look like they are better than they are so i think a fine would be justified.
Post by: The Sniper(27754)
2008-02-09 18:13:08
Fine might be a way to go, although that might aggrevate the scaring players away scenario. I dunno about you but I would be put off a game if I was told I could be fined in game, I would understand the thinking behind it but it would worry me that I might make a mistake.

What we could do it lower the payout to a smaller percentage based on the Exp difference. We could call it a jobber payout, where players aren't punished as such for fighting lower exp players, but their rewards are cut down, and cut down more severely the worse a squash match it is.

This could also be reversed so players of low exp winning against a high exp get a much greater reward (probably excluding tournemant matches since they are automated). Fame would still be used to calculate the match payout, but the victor would recieve a percentage incrrease or decrease based on the difficulty of their victory (Exp difference). Obviously there would need to be a cap either way so that LAW's can't send challenges to VWO's get a fluke pin and recieve like $10'000.

This would make it so that players have an incentive to fight around their own experience, rather than a rule that punishes players for fighting too low exp.

This idea just sprang into my head... I actually really really like it, anyone want to tell peter? :)
Post by: The Sniper(27754)
2008-02-09 18:15:48
Extra note - Obviously LMS matches and such have a greater increase in reward if we use percentages, but the risks are heavy, so its justified, plus it takes care of my gripe up at the top, cause players will be reluctant to gank lower players for the rewards will be smaller. :)

btw for the caps I was thinking maybe 30% payout for underchallenging and 150% payout for overchallenging, but see waht you guys think
Post by: Craig(170136)
2008-02-09 18:23:55
Its ok stating all these points, but its Peter who would have to make the changes so just leave it in his hands

If hes happy with the way things are coming along then we can't really do much
Post by: yar(35506)
2008-02-09 20:04:16
Ya we know Peter is'nt likely to make any changes, but we like throwing around idea's... you never know:)

good idea's sniper, I could go with that as well:)
Post by: legendary wolf(38655)
2008-02-09 20:34:33
rofl all my chars are out of LAW so bashing doesn't bother me :D cos i got 1 SPWA and 2 PWOs and all 3 are awesome :D and don't need to bash (anymo')
Post by: Bruiser Brody(121422)
2008-02-09 20:56:31
The answer to any issue is not "where do we place the band-aid", but what is the root cause of the issue.

When I first started years ago, VOW had a healthy dose of experienced veterans and solid newcomers that would eventually stay with the game. Over the course of time, quality in playerbase has dwindled, to the point that experienced players see less and less opportunity to go through the levels alongside friends.

Case in point, experienced players don't see the rivalries that once made it worthwhile to do match sequences or series of lesser paying challenges. LMS is the way to go, for faster retirement and to gain needed funds for a fast start on buying moves as well as expansion of a stable. ***Once you leave PWO, because of the declining stability of the playerbase, challenges within reasonable experience levels become harder to find thus less money to make overall....and so begins the need for the highest payout possible from the few challenges that you will receive.

To stop the current trend of "LMS ONLY" profiles, the game dynamics has to change in a way that promotes solid growth in accounts besides playerbase growth. The changes would be shunned by the experienced players, imo, because it would call for a system that makes it easier for new characters(players) to progress through the game. In doing that, the requirements to join the Legends of VOW list would need to be modified probably. Disclaimer : IN NO WAY, am I bashing the current structure of the game lol, just sharing my 2 cents :) :) :)
Post by: Bruiser Brody(121422)
2008-02-09 21:04:12
150% overchallenge payout:

That will be side stepped by veteran players simply getting together and tanking one of their chars. Example : (DONATORS) Player A sets his SSWO character to NO DOCS for a week, takes a lot of stat damage, then jobs that SSWO to Player B's well designed PWO. I HAVE seen this technique already used, and it would definitely be exploited with that idea implemented.
Post by: The Sniper(27754)
2008-02-09 21:59:32
*sigh* as usual the cheating jerk wads of the world wreck another innovation. Is it just me or do people just suck?
Post by: Bruiser Brody(121422)
2008-02-09 22:21:40
More lofty idea's to balance things out a bit :

Do away with staff altogether. This promotes the tournaments as well by allowing money to be made in tournament matches.
Restructure the match types : Single/Ladder/Table, then Cage/LMS. Explanation : Since you only climb a ladder to win and don't use it as a weapon, it should be in the same category as a Singles match. The same can be said for a table. It's use in a match is ONLY to say the match is over, and doesn't cause the winning blow, thus it too should be in the same category as a Singles. The payout and damage done for Cage and LMS matches is so close, that these two should be in the same category together. S/L/T category matches should be at the same cost and reward levels initially (before adding in a Fame factor). C/L category matches should cost 3x as much and reward at "2x" as that of S/L/T matches. * This idea MIGHT help get players out of the "LMS binge".
To help stimulate the individual player growth, you could do this : LAW, NO cost for tournament participation, pay only 75% of cost to "buy a move" for first 3 moves bought, increase the number of tournaments presently available. SPWA, GAIN the ability to create/join stables, GAIN a reward of 500 ap/money for having a "clean" chat/game report record after promotion, pay only 75% of cost to "buy a move" for the first 3 moves bought after promotion, NO cost for tournament participation. PWO, GAIN the ability to donate to a stable, pay only 50% of cost to "buy a move" for first 3 moves bought after promotion, GAIN a reward of 750 ap/money for having a "clean" chat/game report record after promotion, increase the amount of tournament payouts currently in place. SSWO, pay only 25% of cost to "buy a move" for the first 3 moves bought after promotion, GAIN a reward of 750 ap/money for having a "clean" chat/game report record after promotion. VWO, Gain the ability to join the Legends of VOW "re-modified" list, pay NO cost to "buy a move" for the first 3 moves bought after promotion, GAIN a reward of 750 ap/money for having a "clean" chat/game report record after promotion. Legend of VOW, profiles should have a mark of distinction represented by "Legend #".

"Clean" report record : I feel this should be a "perfect player reward" that's in effect from start to retirement, but it can be implemented on a "league" by "league" basis (that way a player who started out on bad terms, but changed later to conform to the rules doesn't get punished for "old crimes" lol).

Some of the idea's presented may, in part or in whole content, be old idea's already presented in the past and reintroduced here.

This plan may have the "appearance" of an inflation with regards to the amount of money accumulated in the game, but there are plans, IF implemented, that would help balance out the game economy. If anyone is interested in seeing those plans, just send me an ingame message and I'll gladly share them :) :) :)
Post by: Bruiser Brody(121422)
2008-02-09 23:17:09
"*sigh* as usual the cheating jerk wads of the world wreck another innovation. Is it just me or do people just suck?"

The answer is : NO. lol

Exploitation or "creative" thinking is being done by (some) veterans of the game. They are only doing what is necessary to grow or survive in today's atmosphere within VOW. Although, I don't condone the behavior, I don't fault those players either.

Maybe with some changes, they would be less inclined to be involved in drastic measures like that :):):)
Post by: Captain Stupendous(38517)
2008-02-10 01:06:51
Meh.

I don't have a problem with the so-called "LMS gankers", since before the LMS matches came along people instead focused upon Cage matches. This phenomenon is nothing new.

I think everyone is for some reason discounting the virtue of singles matches. You get less money, but you are able to participate in more matches. This makes your exp. go up faster and allows you to buy moves at cheaper prices more often. Conversely, LMS fighters participate in matches far less often both due to the AP cost and to the aversion that some players have to LMS matches. Furthermore, in order for an LMS fighter to remain successful they have to constantly buy moves several steps ahead of minimum price.

During my last incarnation as a Trad (the polar opposite of an LMS specialist) I was able to retire in only 9 months. The fact that I am and always have been a non-donator just reinforces my position.

In my opinion, the argument of faster retirement via LMS matches is groundless, as there are many paths to success.
Post by: Dyna Mike Duncan(127082)
2008-02-10 07:02:03
And again, a major issue with the LMS Gankers in LAW is overlooked ....

THEY ARE BASHING NEW PLAYERS!
Post by: yar(35506)
2008-02-10 10:07:01
I dont think with the current rules you can bash in your own league John.
Post by: legendary wolf(38655)
2008-02-10 10:12:56
Captain Stu your missing out a valued part of the tactic ;)

yeah sure, singles you can get exp faster, so what your getting like... $200 per 5exp? Let's break that down, so your getting $40 per 1exp right?

Okay now let's do LMS, $600 per 5exp, 120 per 1 exp.

So with that you would be able to collect lots of money whilst staying low in exp, therefore and this is the part i do it for, allowing to add more cash into your stable to provide stable growth. The benefits to your char help too.

In LAW Without considering injuries and R&R you could get
Singles: $10,000
LMS: $30,000

SPWA
Singles: $22,000
LMS: $66,000

PWO
Singles: 240,000
LMS: 720,000

And so on...

And this is if you WIN, if you lose you make alot more money in the long run. Also that's not taking into account R&R or injuries or stable donations. Now people are gonna reply with 'but in LMS you get more injuries' which yeah ok thats right, but not as much as you all seem to think, how else do you think that i have so many moves and can smush all the single fighters that challenge me?

The fact is people don't want to fight LMS because they like to stick to their flukey singles matches which they win like 50% of the time, and that makes them happy, well i'd rather win much more than that, i have stables to support and moves to buy.

PS: there's a chance i messed up on the maths cos i aint done maths in... ages and i'm very tired :P
Post by: legendary wolf(38655)
2008-02-10 10:18:52
PWO
Singles: 48,000
LMS: 144,000

I knew i messed up somewhere, but i aint editting my last post cos of the damn PlitMcode that appears when you edit and puts like 3 spaces inbetween each line. -.-
Post by: Dyna Mike Duncan(127082)
2008-02-10 11:25:45
I know within the CURRENT rules you can't bassh within your own league - and the rule about multiple fights against an opponent who has very little chance of winning is rarely (if ever) enforced - which is what the Gankers are taking advantage of (or I'd say abusing the current Noob-Bashing rule)

End of the day, if new players aren't encouraged to stick around, if the tactics/game mechanics aren't made more readily available to them, and the Gankers continue to bash their way thru LAW, then what is the future of the game?

People want developments adding to the game. Developments cost money. Without more players signing up + donating, not only will the game NEVER improve, it will get even worse.
Post by: yar(35506)
2008-02-10 12:23:34
I am kinda tore on this issue.

On one hand I think people should be able to fight anyone they want in their league if the person accepts, speaking about laws.
multiple matchs against the same person who has no chance needs to be inforced though.

And on the other hand I think you have a great point, we need to encourage people to stay.

I think we need official trainers and maybe a training league where the trainer has to promote them when they feel they are ready for law. A major undertaking to say the least and I am not even sure that would work, you cant force people to be smart about the way they play the game.
Maybe forget the beginner league but definately have official trainers that can welcome them to the game and get them off on the right foot.
Post by: Dyna Mike Duncan(127082)
2008-02-10 13:11:19
Once outside of LAW, then people should be free to challenge anybody they want (except LAWs), do whatever matches they like and as long as donators aren't using their 2nd or 3rd wrestlers to job to friends, then can fight people as often as they like.

All the suggestions about fines, reduced payouts etc should only be instigated in LAW. Players like Rikishi, Joker etc who have high XP would suffer greatly if these rules were brought in across all leagues.

Once a player has progressed through LAW, they should know enough about match types, experience differences etc to be able to pick + choose which challenges they accept without any further 'nanny-ing' by inbuilt features
Post by: yar(35506)
2008-02-10 13:38:33
true but by limiting the experience they can fight, would you just be prolonging the bashing till they got to spwa? Where it would be worse cause they could get bashed by all the upper leagues instead of their own league?
Are any changes really justified when the people we speak of will only be in law for a few days anyway.
new players should have some responsibilty, how many times does it take to get bashed before they realize ok i need to fight closer to my exp, or maybe I should read the manual and learn how to play right.
Post by: legendary wolf(38655)
2008-02-10 13:47:28
which is why we need the new players diverted straight to a simple guide.
Post by: Dyna Mike Duncan(127082)
2008-02-10 14:01:22
If they manage to get to SPWA, it usually means that they've at least worked out how to make some money to heal between matches - so have probably worked out other things in the game, so the bashings wouldn't be as big an issue as it is in LAW currently.

Aiden is right though - the simplest solution would be a straightforward diversion to a hints/tips page before people can start playing.

After that, it is their own fault if they don't take any notice of it
Post by: yar(35506)
2008-02-10 14:07:22
I agree, they should have to go to a page where they have to read and answer a few basic questions before they can play and be rewarded with money or Ap.
they could reanswer any question they missed to get full benefit.
Not additional money or AP what they normaly recieve as a new player.
Post by: Captain Stupendous(38517)
2008-02-10 14:29:51
"Captain Stu your missing out a valued part of the tactic ;) "

No, I don't think so. I can say that with authority because I've been on the other side of the debate before in a thread similar to this one that has long since been deleted. I even remember making a cash/exp. list just like yours.

I have since changed my mind on the matter after retiring my Trad. Sure, if you choose the LMS strategy you will get more money and at the end of the game you will have a monster with multiple specials and a massive pile of cash... but does the tactic really make you retire FASTER?

Absolutely not.
Post by: legendary wolf(38655)
2008-02-10 17:23:14
Retiring is pointless, i dont aim to retire faster because i've done it once and realised how boring it was, i prefer to just win titles now in the different leagues, therefore making tonnes of money and getting more moves.
Post by: Captain Stupendous(38517)
2008-02-10 23:34:23
I was taking issue with this statement here:

"LMS is the way to go, for faster retirement..."

If you don't share this goal, that's fine.
Post by: legendary wolf(38655)
2008-02-11 18:15:36
technically it is... if you donate like loads xD
Post by: The Sniper(27754)
2008-02-11 18:22:53
This has slightly gone away from its original direction, but its rbought up another worth while point, so I don't mind at all :)

While out of Ap I decided to fish around and see if I can find any other online wrestling games, since VOW was the only one I've ever known. I won't post it here because I doubt peter wants me to spread information about his competition :P


Anyway, the game had a set of tutorials a player could go through to get used to the game. If I'm honest I didn't find them to helpful, the game is really awkward and the tutorials don't really guide you at all. Anyway, the point is after you complete each tutorial section you would get the equivelant of an Ap award you could use to upgrade moves and such.

What I'm thinking is borrowing from this idea we could give them the choice to run the tutorial once they start the game (Any new player with sense would say yes). So give them 500 Ap to start, and take them through the basics of setting their staff, training their stats, fighting a match, and healing their Vital Life, explaining the effect of each and we went. Each section would award them an aditional 500 Ap points to get back to the normal 2500Ap we normally get.

People who genuinely wanted to play the game would pick to run the tutorial and get a grasp on how to play the game. The tutorial can close by saying anything else you want to know read the wiki manual of ask an online member about it. This way players aren't felt lost to start with and it encourages more players to stay. Also has the added benefit of us avoiding the noob questions we face on a daily basis :)

Only thing we need to consider wehn wiritng the tutorial is to not put opinions in. E.g. when it comes to specials, rather than saying "specialise one of your style specific moves" say something like "You can set a Special Move using any move in the game, pick a current one, or save up and wait for one you prefer". Any opinions on this? :)
Post by: Captain Stupendous(38517)
2008-02-12 05:10:16
What exactly is the difference between the VOW of today and the VOW of yesterday when Cage matches were king? I took my beatings from these Cage monsters, learned from my defeats, and became smarter and stronger. I have absolutely no sympathy for new players that cannot do the same.

In both iterations of VOW, all that mattered between participants of these matches is who could amass the biggest wad of cash the fastest to spend on moves. I hate to repeat myself, but this phenomenon is nothing new! I find it extremely hard to believe that the introduction of LMS matches have broken the game.

1v1 tags? Those matches broke the game. LMS matches do not, since the reward is balanced by risk.

Everyone can complain and maybe even cry to Peter for change, but maybe it's time to remember that Peter has already empowered us with some level of control over the game.

It's called the "Decline" button.

Why empower your proclaimed nemeses with more wins and money? Outside of a random tournament match, there is no reason anyone ever has to endure a horrible LMS match against a big hulking brute ever again.

Instead of complaining about a "new" phenomenon, it is better to focus upon your own wrestler and play VOW as you see fit and remember to let the others do the same. There are other players out there that are hungry for non-LMS matches.
Post by: Dyna Mike Duncan(127082)
2008-02-12 06:29:30
I agree totally Rob - that's what the Decline Button is there for and those players who understand how the game works are free to use it whenever they like.

Emphasis on 'those players who understand how the game works' there though
Post by: Captain Stupendous(38517)
2008-02-12 11:57:32
My emphasis is on having no sympathy for those that are unable to learn from their mistakes. Astute players can figure out the basic game mechanics through careful observation without needing a helping hand.

This is supposed to be both a playground and a battleground. Casualties are expected.
Post by: Dyna Mike Duncan(127082)
2008-02-12 12:23:09
Casualties, yes - cannon fodder, no!

And as for the playground part - well, the way a lot of the new players are treated on here these days definitely reminds me of a playground .... bullying, clique's, childish behaviour ...
Post by: The Legend Killer(21778)
2008-02-12 13:39:38
Interesting read, good arguments and counter arguments.

To impose fines on someone for bashing: this is something which can easily be countered. Wrestler A has 100exp and stats of 0/0/0/0/25, Wrestler B has 0exp and stats of 20/20/20/40/60 (aerialist example). He can easily bypass this "fine" system by getting max payout from a character who is effectively "cannon fodder".

We can restrict LAWs to fighting the same person 5 times in a 36 hour period, that can be countered by farmers, through multi accounting and long term farming. We can impose a stat comparision %age between two wrestlers (a tactic discussed above).

We need to accept that farming, baiting, etc will never go away. We can reduce the payouts (agian) and people will still find a way to make max profit from LMS matches.

We can introduce every measure under the sun; video guides, picture guides, tutorials. But there will always be a majority of new players who will ask the same questions over and over and over again. I play a football (soccer) management game and to start with, you have to go through a 23 step tutorial which gives extra bonuses and opens up new options.

It could be implemented like this:
Step 15: Using the player list, sort all LAWs by experience, then find your character on page ###.
Reward: 50ap
Purpose of exercise: Showing LAWs how to sort players by experience.

Step 16: Using the player list, sort all LAWs by experience and fight another player with experience between 0 and 10.
Reward: $100
Purpose of exercise: Show LAWs how to sort and fight similar experienced players.


Obviously this wouldn't be applicable to Legends. They would start with the basic 2500ap and $500. But for new players, it could show them a way around the game.

I better stop since this is getting too far off the original topic of the thread.
Post by: The Sniper(27754)
2008-02-12 16:56:38
I agree LK, I like the principle, when i wrote it I was thinking of major ones like the gym... something alot of newbies for some reason overlook xD

Example of my ideal start would be this. Additional points are in curly brackets {}

Tutorial part 1: Training your stats (Title, obviously)
Objective: Raise an attribute, using your Ap {The objective}
Guide: {Each part that doesn't already activate a link can have a continue button or something so its easier to explain}
1.Click on the gym link on the left hand side to load the gym page.
2. As you can see you have 5 attributes to choose from, you should also be able to see your current Action Points and Money at the bottom, they should read 500 each. Click continue when you can see them.
3.Npw type a value into the white text box of the stat you want to change (this can be anything, but we recommend 50+). Now click your gym trainer for this stat and select "No". click continue to proceed.
4. The gym trainer set to no will not use any of money to train your attribute, but will not train it to its maximum. Once you are happy with your settings click "Train"
5. Congrats you have trained your {Stat} by {points #} points. you will find you now have an additional 250 Ap. {and maybe a complete button or something}

And lets face it, if you can't train your stats after that... your either forgeign (In which case your excused) or a nit :P
Post by: The Sniper(27754)
2008-02-12 17:00:10
Tutorial Part 2 is becoming Pro 1337 in LAW... or perhaps Training your stats higher... whatever. Explaining using money to trains tats :)
Post by: legendary wolf(38655)
2008-02-12 17:49:36
Personally i think if you're so stupid you can't play a game then you don't deserve that privelidge. :|

The fact is that all this get's said, we all argue over how to protect and help the noobs and then what becomes of it... nothing, so you gotta accept that or just sit here and argue these same things that i've seen crop up again and again over the past 4 years i've been here.

We're the players, not the creators, it's not up to us to save this game, we shouldn't have to step in like this.
Post by: The Sniper(27754)
2008-02-12 18:03:32
Thats a very negative view Wolfy :S

I figure that if new players genuinely want to learn to play the game, they can follow the tutorial to get used to it in the early stages. And lets face it I know I won't be ahppy if this game crashes, I'm immortalised for eternity here :)
Post by: legendary wolf(38655)
2008-02-12 18:29:48
Meh the truth hurts.
Post by: The Sniper(27754)
2008-02-13 15:50:55
LoL, true but ya know, good ideas are formed from many minds, not just one... except for ya know Yahtzee Croshaw's escapist game revieews. Their 100% pure awesome from 100% pure Yahtzee :)

If you don't know who he is... which I'm asuming is everyone... it is my example of pure gold, chase it up if you will :)
Post by: Captain Stupendous(38517)
2008-02-14 00:44:24
Yahtzee and his Zero Punctuation videos? That man is a genius.

Regarding the tutorial idea, the first thing I thought about when trying "the other game" is that we should have a tutorial also.
Post by: Bruiser Brody(121422)
2008-02-15 00:33:14
Newb + knowledge = Understanding

Unfortunately, there's another point to be looked at when coordinating efforts to promote the game. Veteran players will have to accept the fact that we need more organized and "easier" player progression and development strategies in the game. With literally hundreds of thousands of games online to play, the number one appealing aspect of a game : ease of play and progression. The ideas I posted earlier are an example of how to "speed up" growth, while promoting and rewarding positive gameplay.

Remember, newb + inexperience = jobber, experienced player + wealth of knowledge = 99.9% of the bashers in the game. It's a mood point to talk about bashing players when there's no current inspiration to take a different direction, especially when veteran players are leading the way in "creative moneymaking schemes". ;)
Post by: jmallonee(34807)
2008-02-15 05:56:01
the thing everyone needs to remember is that the veterans was once new to the game also and yet they somehow figured out how to play and become good enough to where they wanted to stay and keep playing. the new players of today will be the veterans of tomorrow.
if you make a game too easy then there wont be a challenge and people wont stay around.
what the veterans offer to the new people is that when the new people beat them they feel a sense of accomplishment.
look at the people who put in their wrestler description or move description how many legends they have beat and how many times.
that's my opinion
Post by: legendary wolf(38655)
2008-02-15 06:39:54
"the thing everyone needs to remember is that the veterans was once new to the game"
- Some of us from when the game was less complicated, such as less match types and no staff.

"if you make a game too easy then there wont be a challenge and people wont stay around."
- If you make a game too hard new players won't understand it and will leave.

"what the veterans offer to the new people is that when the new people beat them they feel a sense of accomplishment."
- That's what the lazy ones offer, the more pro-active ones offer help and guidance and share tactics, and also create friendships and work them into conversations in chat.

"look at the people who put in their wrestler description or move description how many legends they have beat and how many times. "
- That's still not offering much, they are just bragging as usual.
Post by: jmallonee(34807)
2008-02-15 06:47:25
as usual legendary wolf takes exception to everything I say.
do you really think you can tell me anything I dont already know? I have been here longer than you have.
I know what the game used to be like.
I wont let you draw me into yet another ugly discussion. this is all I will say at my displeasure of you attacking me everytime I make a post. very immature
Post by: Dyna Mike Duncan(127082)
2008-02-15 07:42:12
Obviously some history between legendary wolf + jmallonee, not my concern though.

Both players bring up useful points, but I have to back up the point wolf raised about the more difficult the game is to understand at the start, the less likely new players are going to stick around and become contributors to the game.

Unfortunately, a vast amount of the new players signing up today are too lazy to learn how to play the game, and this is detrimental to the game as a whole.

The best suggestions that have been put forward so far aren't designed to make the game any easier to play, they are to make the hints/guides/rules more accessible, prominent and COMPULSORY to read.

What's wrong with that?

For veteran players, it will bring more competition and a bigger challenge as there'll be less players to make easy money off.
For new players, it will give them a quick + easy insight into the game and rules, and they will hopefully stick around longer, maybe donate more so hopefully more developments for the game.
For the Mods, it should ease their burden as players will be forced to read the rules, so they will have NO EXCUSE when the rules are broken.

Everyone's a winner - except those players who build their wrestlers on the back of money earned Ganking in LAW anyway
Post by: Craig(170136)
2008-02-15 09:32:57
Iím not picking sides between Aiden and Jim

But I do believe Jim statement makes a lot of sense, like I stated at the beginning of the thread, it was players like Jim, Ben and co who changed the way vow is played

And every vet has copied that idea, and for anyone to say they havenít is a joke, Aiden for one has become a LMS basher, as have I

Unfortunately, a vast amount of the new players signing up today are too lazy to learn how to play the game, and this is detrimental to the game as a whole.(regarding DMDís post)

Well thatís not anyone elseís fault but there own, Iím sorry to say but Iíd rather play vow with 50 players who get along fine, and play the game within the rules, then idiots who log in lose there first fight, detach then start again, or even worse people who log in die, make a new guy and go around like that because they canít be bothered to do anything

The point to my statement really is if people arenít willing to learn the dam game then unlucky for them, but to bring up points regarding how others play the game is really just placing yourself as a hypocrite, cause Iím sure everyone who has posted in this forum including myself all have over 100 LMS wins coming out of either law or spwa

Post by: Dyna Mike Duncan(127082)
2008-02-15 10:04:21
I'm not blaming anybody else for the way the noobs are behaving, and I think everybody will agree that it is nobody's fault but their own.

So, do we just accept that fact and let things carry on as they are, or do something about it????

Their behaviour (and in my view their treatment by the experienced players/Gankers etc.) is a detriment to the game and something should be done about it or nothing will change.

I too would rather not have to deal with all the tripe that the noobs come out with - but doing nothing at all won't stop them.
Post by: The Sniper(27754)
2008-02-15 17:01:38
I was considering the idea of having a set of tutorials with bots and such in to give them an idea of how progression works. Of course bots are non existant in game so this would be like training to cook for a reception school class then being dropped into a 5 star restaurant kitchen. So needless to say that idea was scrapped inside my own head:)

But as I said in my post in the other thread... since there are technically 2 threaeds runinng regarding this issue :P

... the main problems for new players at the minute in VOW: -
- There are alot more features in VOW to work with, so therefore it is alot more difficult to get to grips with.
- The larger starting Ap amount allows players who do not know what they are doing to do large amounts of damage to their characters before they learn how to play the game
- Alot of charcters are essentially on their own once they start, and are either embaressed to ask for help, or too arrogant to ask for help.

A tutorial would help the game in my opinion by: -
- walking the new player quickly through the features of VOW, what they do and how they work. This would make them alot more confidentbefore going solo in the game.
- Making sure they used their large AP to set them off on the right track rather than break their characters to the point they are almost unusable
- Giving them some help to starting the game which will make players feel alot more welcome and encourage them to stay

I am quite happy to design a tutorial myself, I've tended to have a knack for assignments and wording things according to my english teacher :P

Just don't want to do it for it to get totally ignored :P
Post by: The Legend Killer(21778)
2008-02-15 20:41:54
What about a staggered tutorial?

You get 1500ap to start with. Step one would be to familiarise yourself with the links in the game followed by a very simple quiz (e.g. which link allows you raise stats). This then unlocks the ability to fight your first match with a tutorial element.

This would then continue on until you reach 50exp (when the game more or less becomes fully open, except tag teams). By which point, you would have fought a decent number of matches and followed a nice guide to VOW which opens up all the features of the game.
Post by: The Sniper(27754)
2008-02-15 20:50:14
I like it! Better than what I was thinking, I was thinking of having it so all functions were available with 500 Ap but people got awarded extra AP as they completed the tutorial. Unlocking things as people go is even better :)

"What about a staggered tutorial?

You get 1500ap to start with. Step one would be to familiarise yourself with the links in the game followed by a very simple quiz (e.g. which link allows you raise stats). This then unlocks the ability to fight your first match with a tutorial element.

This would then continue on until you reach 50exp (when the game more or less becomes fully open, except tag teams). By which point, you would have fought a decent number of matches and followed a nice guide to VOW which opens up all the features of the game."

+1
Post by: legendary wolf(38655)
2008-02-16 19:48:13
*wonders what a ganker is*
Post by: jmallonee(34807)
2008-02-16 20:52:37
Definition of Ganker;

One who exploits and uses underhanded tactics to win a battle to make up for their lack of skill, or the courage to fight someone that is equal to their skill
Post by: legendary wolf(38655)
2008-02-17 10:50:27
Damn i need to get in more.
Post by: yar(35506)
2008-02-17 13:04:02
As long as there are weak or dying characters there will always be someone willing to take advantage of them regardless of what you do.
Maybe leave it the way it is, let new players learn by fire, most people will detach and start over once they know what they are doing anyway, although some have just stuck it out and kept their origional number.
Post by: The Sniper(27754)
2008-02-17 20:07:52
Guilty, never once detached a char :)
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