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Forum: General
Thread: Players and Mods: The situation in the chat.
Post by: Doug the Designer(55)
2005-08-05 00:20:49
All,

The position of chat moderator was instituted by popular demand around 6 months ago in response to the rampant vulgarity and inappropriate behavior on the chat. Things were fine until now, but now problems are surfacing between the mods and mostly established players in the form of public chat disagreements that generally serve only to inflame the rest of the player base that is currently online. I was the first mod here, as some of you may remember, and had my share of nasty player entanglements that spawed out of public disagreements. I also know that mods can be too strict, not strict enough, or just plain wrong. I also know from experience that NOTHING good comes from public disagreements between mods and players; the only product being bad blood and a loss of respect among the parties involved. I am currently working on a new set of guidelines for both players and mods to help alleviate these problems, but one rule that I am enacting as of now that will be permenant is this:

Players are not allowed to publicly argue moderator decisions with the moderators. I don't care if the Mod is an egomaniacle sadist with a God complex that just told you not to use the word "the". I don't care if the public forum is the chat or this board. If you have a problem with a moderator's decision, players are to appeal to the moderator email account. If you are not satisfied with the result of your appeal, you can ask me to review it (also send it to the mod hotmail account, as most of my game characters are inactive).

Your appeal will be given serious consideration, and if a Mod is found to be somehow at fault, we will discuss the situation with the mod to help alleviate such errors in the future.

So, to sum up, if mod tells you to do something, do it and don't argue. If you disagree, take it up with the Head Moderator, and, if that doesn't satisfy you, take it up with me. And, always dispute these things IN PRIVATE.

I thank all the players for their consideration.
Post by: insane clown(11577)
2005-08-05 02:04:17
I know i will get in trouble but who cares. YOU ARE DRIVING ALL THE NEW AND OLD PLAYERS AWAY WITH THIS STUPID RULE.

most mods think there gods they need to be corrected most of the time tho and its bull.

This game was great fun when all the the top players were here etc then u make stupid arse rules which make them all wanna leave why cant u see that this is now hurting the game.

This game needs a major overhaul and even new owner somebody who cares about the players and the money put into the game, mods need to be really sorted out. things need to be added we need all the top players back the ones who made this game succesfull.

the thing i see this as is everybody wants to be the big power and its runing the game also you are so interesed in trying to get more people to play u are forgeting about the people who made this game what it is today.

DITCH ALL MODS APART FROM 3 OR 4 AT MAX
Post by: ocelot(76)
2005-08-05 02:07:35
WOW what can I say...? The application is as easy as compared to an application for a childrens drawing contest. I must say almost anyone (but me for no reason at all is never accepted) can be a mod these days.....
Post by: Doug the Designer(55)
2005-08-05 02:57:18
I'm sorry you feel that way IC, and I do realize that quantity does not equal quality. I have placed a moratorium on chat mod hires for the time-being. Your post hints at much deeper resentments than just the latest situation in the chat. If you want to discuss this privately, I am willing. Just send an email off to the mod account and I will reply.

Ocelot, while the application to be a mod is fairly simple, we haven't been accepting anyone that hasn't been vouched for by another mod. Sometimes mods don't work out or don't fully understand the guidelines, and that is what I'm trying to rectify.
Post by: Dalvian(38356)
2005-08-05 03:13:08
I agree that disputes with the mods should be handled privately. Public discussions would only distract from the flavor of the games we are here to play. If you are wrong admit that you are wrong. If you think you are not wrong take it through proper chanels. I don't see what attacking a mods charachter can accomplish.
Post by: Raving Druids(21385)
2005-08-05 08:00:45
There are no desigated Mods for GW. Which is a shame. People drop in to chat from time to time talking like they are Mods...and if they are visiting VoW Mods looking for a better game (;-)), thats great. Of course, they could also just be gangsta wanabes straight outa Compton - Gang names are not linked to Mod names.
Post by: BubbaG(33460)
2005-08-05 08:36:39
Yes, there is a Moderator for GW. I use the Gang Name: Massimo
But because of the nature of the game it makes it tougher to police. If you need to message me, I can be contacted at moderatorplit@hotmail.com
Post by: Raving Druids(21385)
2005-08-05 08:48:37
Well thats news. Where was that announced?


(sorry this has gone a bit off topic ;-)
Post by: Lincoln(27675)
2005-08-05 09:05:53
I totally agree - I have a feeling this post is a result of my email to Peter... and I totally agree with you Doug.

Some mods are great, some seriously drive me wild... I won't name names.
Post by: BubbaG(33460)
2005-08-05 09:11:01
Raving, there wasn't really a formal announcement. And because of the way the ingame messaging is set up, you are unable to message someone unless they are in that particular Gangwar. There is nothing shown on the Contact Page. But if you do need to contact me, email me or
VOW: Bubba Gump
Space Conquest: Lexus Nexus
Adventures Fame: Maximus Bulbous
Strive for Power: Red Raiders
Post by: Version 1(26732)
2005-08-05 13:51:14
"Players are not allowed to publicly argue moderator decisions with the moderators. I don't care if the Mod is an egomaniacle sadist with a God complex that just told you not to use the word "the". I don't care if the public forum is the chat or this board. If you have a problem with a moderator's decision, players are to appeal to the moderator email account. If you are not satisfied with the result of your appeal, you can ask me to review it (also send it to the mod hotmail account, as most of my game characters are inactive)."

I agree with this statement, but find a hole. Moderators should not have the right to publicly tell off players. If someone does something wrong, they should not say so in the chat, they should message the player in-game. Countless times I have been warned by mods through the chat. What if I turn off the chat after doing something there? Also I believe the Rules of Conduct have many holes...



"OBSCENITY POLICY"

This is probably the worse part of it all:

" In regards to obscenity masking (#$@#$!) if we can figure out what it is supposed to say, then it counts regardless."

Recently on the chat, I posted a message saying:

"That match was ****!!!"

Firstly, I posted 4 stars to say, that match was a four star match. Secondly, if it did indeed mean something offensive, how could a moderator say what it was supposed to be intended as? Clearly the Rules of Conduct says "if we can figure out what it is supposed to say" as to the masking. But how can you understand what "****" is supposed to say? I myself know of alot of 'rude' words in which features four letters. How would the moderator know which one it was? Recently TajiriTarantula told the moderators that someone had said "damn" with it as "d***", but the moderator, who was gatcholio, said 'damn' is not an offensive word. Yet the person who said damn decided to mask it because he obviously thinks some may be offended by it. What if I said 'damn' with "****"? We already know people think it is offensive enough to mask, so what if I decided to mask it as well. Wouldn't that mean I can't be banned?



The reason I was banned was because I was supposedly rude to the moderators. I don't see how correcting a moderator can be a suspendable offence. I called a match a four star match and the moderator said that I was masking swear words. The moderators reacted badly in my opinion. Instead of asking me in private messaging what I intended to mean, they striaght away told me not to mask. I told them they were wrong and to stop telling lies, but they simply ignored me and told me I was being "disrespectful" to them, and I would be suspended, publicly to everyone online over the chat. The two moderators in question were Mr. 5000 and gatcholio. I then talked to mr. 5000 through the messaging system. I had alot of trouble talking to the moderator, as he had trouble maintaning a conversation that contained proper spelling and grammar. How can we have moderators which you can't understand? I questioned his warning of Tajiritaruntula, who had been trying to stop the injustice by the moderators. He told me that "mods descisions will be respected, you started arguing, 2 or 3 people jumped in and joined you, we wont put up with that, no other online game does and we wont either. ". The problems with this? Firstly, what do other games have to do with this? Last time I checked, Plit was indpendent and had its own rules. He then says that moderator's descisions will be 'respected'. Where does it state this in the Rules of Conduct? Sure, we have to respect players, but it doesn't mean we have to respect their descisions. Or are moderators allowed to warn/suspend us on rules that the make up on the spot? I don't respect both gatcholio's and mr. 5000's descisions and that should not be held against me. Basically, TajiriTarantula was warned for breaking no Rules of Conduct.



I have more to say on this and will post it soon.



As for making these problems public Doug, I don't see the problem in it. This problem concerns the community of VOW, and other players should be aware of how the moderators have acted and be able to put their opinion in.

Post by: Lincoln(27675)
2005-08-05 18:33:38
That is entirely true Version 1... I couldn't have put it any better myself.

The problem with the moderators in my opinion is this. If they want to warn members for miniscule things that 99% of people think is harmless... they are going to have to expect people to dispute the decision.

What kind of successful government does not allow people to have their say... and when they do it is considered arguing. Communism maybe, and this hasn't proven to be very successful (apologies to all Communists). We have opinions too, we need to be able to voice them without being shunned and warned for this.

Gatcholio said to me in a message "now let me have fun. thanks." regarding the issue. This is totally hypocritical, he was taking away mine, and Version 1's fun for the past hour. When he took on the role as moderator, he should have realised that as well as all the things he can do to make himself feel powerful, there are responsibilites, and this includes listening to people.

It's a two-way street, the people need to be able to be heard and respected... after all, without them, we would have about 10 players in the game.
Post by: Doug the Designer(55)
2005-08-05 22:30:42
"As for making these problems public Doug, I don't see the problem in it." -MHV1

Does all the crap I deleted answer that question for you? Was it in any way productive? Has it served to make you feel any better? No? Then listen to me the first time! The situation with Mr. 50000 was adequately resolved PRIOR to your post. Digging it up again in public shows disrespect to me and ungratefulness that I took action upon your complaint. If you want my sympathy to your problems, acting like that is not the way to my good graces.

Chat Mods: Don't hijack my thread. I don't want to see you defending yourselves on the forum any more. I am your advocate here, and defending yourself only causes more problems. Being publicly baited by players is a dark tunnel at the end of which lies threats of lawsuits (I know).

Now, to address the valid points without the sillyness:

Jaysen Chambers: I already explained how chat mods are chosen. The answer to your question lies in that explanation.

"I agree with this statement, but find a hole. Moderators should not have the right to publicly tell off players. If someone does something wrong, they should not say so in the chat, they should message the player in-game." -MHV1


I agree with this statement, except in the cases where a player is being completely atrocious. In this case, the chat mods should still post to the chat to make a visible show of action to the other players, who are probably fed up with the flamer in question and want to see action. This new policy will be part of my final policy revision.


"He then says that moderator's descisions will be 'respected'. Where does it state this in the Rules of Conduct? Sure, we have to respect players, but it doesn't mean we have to respect their descisions." -MHV1


I just said you have to respect their decisions, and you, in the first quote, said you agreed with that statement.


"I don't see how correcting a moderator can be a suspendable offence."


Because it is not your place as a player to correct a moderator. That is my, or Hick's, or Bubba's place. You just said you don't like being publicly corrected, but it is a two-way street.


Lincoln: I don't know if you are an American, but in America if you are arrested by the police, justly or unjustly, and you argue with the arresting officer, what happens? You get tasered, clubbed, and generally beaten down. The chat mods are police. They are NOT investigators. They are not expected to be nice to you. They are not expected to care about your personal problems. They are not expected to care if you think what they are doing is right or wrong. They are there put an end to nuisance chatters, and when you argue with them, guess what? you become a bigger nuiscance! There are two head moderators, Hick and Bubba, and an admin, myself, there acting as investigators. We are the people that have the duty to be nice to you and listen to your problems. So, the choice is left up to you. If you fall out of the good graces of a chat mod, you can either end up in my "office" unscathed and cooperative, or can end up in my "office" beaten to a bloody pulp by the chat mods with a suspension in tow. The choice is yours, but I will say that I get annoyed when players come in bleeding on my floor. Cooperation is the single best way to get your problems straighted out in a quick and painless manner.

" they are going to have to expect people to dispute the decision." -Lincoln


That is absolutely correct, but there is a right/efficient way to dispute the decision, and a wrong/ineffective way to dispute it. If after all this players don't understand that, then they will just have to lose their accounts. I have already said that I recognize that there are problems and inconsistencies in the chat moderation. I have told you that rectifying this is my number one priority and that I'm actively working on it. It is up to you to be patient and cooperative while this issue is being resolved.
Post by: Lincoln(27675)
2005-08-06 10:16:07
I understand what you are trying to say Doug... but by calling the mods 'police' is just the problem. These guys, self-admittedly by Gatch want "to have fun", and they are like always-on-duty policemen, but they want to have fun and not be police aswell. That is the problem, moderating is not their number 1 priority.
Post by: Doug the Designer(55)
2005-08-06 10:20:31
It is an admitedly unavoidable conflict of interest.
Post by: Doug the Designer(55)
2005-08-07 23:15:28
I've come up with a new system that I think will work, and it has been approved by the Head Mods and Peter, so, we'll give it a try.

I'll probably write it up today.
Post by: superdwarf(165614)
2006-01-30 02:56:34
For gods sake people, ask the people for gods sake, if they elect someone they can trust, they wont argue with them!
Post by: JopeBow(66329)
2006-02-01 01:36:23
That wont work, considering the majority of rule breaker's are noobs. they wouldnt have voted them in would they... It's also about respect for the rules of the place in which you are in... There should be a ZERO tolarance. and the pressiss is on the char itself... if ya caught breaking a rule... put ya hand up say yeah i'll do my punnishment... you'll find the punnishment will be a lot less than if you argue and appeal about it... i guess it's more of a matter of respect and maturity.


The mod isnt there to be ya friend but there should be the mentality that the mod's decish is final and he/she's never wrong.. even when they are... argueing isnt going to help any matter not publically anyway... there is an email addy for the player to write to to make his statement. The chat area isnt the place to argue with mods. it shows a disrespect and a unsportsman like attitude. It, you can say , Put the game into disrespute... And that in itself shoud be a suspendable offence.
Post by: BubbaG(33460)
2006-02-01 02:04:29
Wow Joe. I couldn't have said it better myself. Props to Joe for that one.
Post by: superdwarf(165614)
2006-02-01 05:44:01
*claps*
Post by: crashdown(167674)
2006-02-15 09:42:02
Although Joe makes a valid point at which point can we say a mod has broken its power limit. I have been in many disputes with many mods in other sites and all the banning have somethng in common and that is that the mods beleive they are god and that they enforce the rules but don't have to follow them. I believe that respect is earned not given so how do you expect us to all give respect to a mods decision if it is not a correct decision. Joe how can you say that arguing against a mods decision should be bannable? I am a canadian and being that i know that everyone is entitle to a fair trial but how can that be if as Doug said before a mod has to be vouched by from another mod. that leaves all the power within a group of people which is a form of dictattorship.

I agree with superdwarf their should be an elected mod so that their is some equality in the system instead of the power in a single group as a said previously.
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